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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 17, 2010 12:22:03 GMT -5
I found a guitar with a neck I like better than my Strat's, so I transplanted its neck to my guitar. It's too long to be properly intoned. (But the original setup was too short... so this is probably still better... if it can be fixed.)
Can I cut the neck shorter with my bandsaw? I'd need to shorten it about an inch and then round it with the belt sander. I'm guessing that the only risk is hitting the truss rod. It has a truss rod, but the kind that is adjusted at the head.
Can I expect there to be at least an inch of pure wood at the heel? (There is no "skunk stripe" if that could be an indicator of anything.)
As always... thanks for any help. As even alwayser... rock on!
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 17, 2010 12:40:06 GMT -5
The words "bad idea" spring to mind almost immediately.
You point out, yourself, that hitting the truss rod is a likely possibility.
Another point is whether you'll have enough heel to securely place the neck in the pocket.
The best thing to do is look for a neck in the proper scale (25.5", 25.0" or 24.75"...or whatever) and work from there. Even necks of the proper scale length will give you hours of fun tweaking and setting them up.
While this is your neck to do with as you please, I would sell this one and buy the neck to fit the scale you need...sans bandsaw.
HTC1
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Post by chuck on Jun 17, 2010 12:50:07 GMT -5
good call ... can you spell DISASTER ?
it would be easier to move the bridge than cut the neck ;D
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 17, 2010 16:14:23 GMT -5
OK... FINE, THEN!... lol. Thanks for the advice. Kinda thought this might be on the inadvisable side of things.
So, now... Are there any words of encouragement available for a guy who's guitar plays a little flat? Like, maybe it's kinda cool...
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Post by newey on Jun 17, 2010 16:32:05 GMT -5
Sure, you just need to convince everyone else to tune to you . . . Otherwise, a new neck or moving the bridge are your options.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 17, 2010 17:11:07 GMT -5
Sure, you just need to convince everyone else to tune to you . . . I know you're joking around as I am... but you make me wonder... is this only a problem when playing with others? Cuz I'm not (yet.) When I practice alone, my guitar sounds good to me. I'm just worried that learning stuff with the intonation off will train my ear to be musically dumb or something. Like, if you heard a lone guitar playing... would you notice if the intonation was a bit flat? (Each string is off to the same degree, if that means anything. The staggering of the saddles looks normal.)
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 17, 2010 18:13:41 GMT -5
It's also gonna matter when you're playing more than one string at a time and not on the same fret, especially when there's some distance between them. Like, for example, the lead part for Just Like Heaven.
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Post by D2o on Jun 17, 2010 18:51:06 GMT -5
I don't know if this is part of what you're asking, BAY, but I have a few seconds in which to type a few random thoughts, in no particular order: Standard "Concert?" pitch is 440hz You don't have to tune to concert pitch Your instrument should be in tune (with itself), at whatever pitch you choose or end up at If you play with others, the instruments should not only be in tune, but should be in tune with each other That said, there are many alternate tunings (wiki it) A guitar with poor intonation can be tuned either to itself or to 440hz, but will sound out of tune when strings are fretted I doubt you will enjoy a guitar with poor intonation for long Once you start playing with others, I know they will enjoy neither an out of tune guitar nor a poorly intonated guitar for long I hope that helps D2o
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 17, 2010 22:55:21 GMT -5
But is hitting the truss rod the only worry with cutting the neck? Because I was thinking about one of these...
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Post by chuck on Jun 17, 2010 23:16:41 GMT -5
you can give it a shot .... at the worst you will ruin the neck.
but why not just buy a new neck ? ... one that is the proper scale length for your guitar body
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 18, 2010 0:52:40 GMT -5
but why not just buy a new neck ? My guitar's neck had been hurting my hand, but I like that it's a solid wood Strat copy. I happened to find a neck I really like the feel of (bigger, chunkier and rounder) on a parts guitar for $15. I'd love to buy a new neck, but it would also have to be around the $10-$25 dollar range for me right now.
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Post by chuck on Jun 18, 2010 2:34:09 GMT -5
ahhhh ... the old empty wallet syndrome . i know the feeling well brother ... i know it well.
what scale length is your Strat ? the std 25.5 " ?
and what neck do you have on it ?
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 18, 2010 15:15:12 GMT -5
I do have a very empty wallet right now. I just spent everything I had saved on new Fender pickups and locking tuners. But I am lucky because I have a secondhand shop with a music department. I get most things I need at really good prices from country auctions when we go out for secondhand stock, and I get a discount on anything new I want from music companies (like my pickups.)
From what I can tell, it's a Strat copy that tries to be standard, but I've never had a real one to compare it to. It's called a Sledgehammer by J.B. Player. It's solid (not plywood) light-coloured wood I'm guessing is one of the common tonewoods... Alder maybe but I'm not sure. I liked the scale length and single-coil sound better than my Les Paul that I was used to, but the neck was a bit too thin and flat. It hurt my hand after playing just a little while.
The neck that I really like was on an Aria Pro II Wildcat. It's not a Strat copy, but Aria's own similar bolt-on design. I really like the shape and I feel kinda bad about stealing its neck but the body is pretty banged-up, so I couldn't really sell it for much and it doesn't suit my own purposes because it only has a bridge pickup (a split humbucker.) I think the slight difference in the length of the neck is because of where the bridge sat on the different body shape. It's not a different scale like trying to put a Les Paul neck on a Strat or something like that. The distance between each fret is the same on both necks. The Wildcat neck just has an extra fret or two more than the Sledgehammer. It's my favourite neck I've ever played so far. It's a bigger handful and has a curvier fretboard. I can play it forever and it feels perfect. It would be a shame to ruin it, but also a shame to have to search for another great deal on a neck I like as much. So I think I might not mind risking ruining the neck for the chance that it could be really great. I'm more concerned with ruining my dad's bandsaw, but I guess that'd be just the blade anyways.
The sledgehammer body and Wildcat neck seem to add up to the absolute perfect guitar for me. Not too cool if the guitar isn't intoned, though. Oddly, the intonation wouldn't adjust perfect with the original neck, either. (It wasn't quite long enough, even with the saddles all the way.)
Thanks for your replies. Maybe when I get home from the store, I'll post a picture of the two guitars I'm talking about.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 18, 2010 15:26:13 GMT -5
Have you got the tools to enlarge the neck pocket? Is there enough room to do so without moving the neck pickup? It think that if you've got a router, even with moving the neck pickup, it would still be easier and less risky than sawing the neck or moving the bridge.
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Post by newey on Jun 18, 2010 15:49:46 GMT -5
BAY said:
And:
Aha, so it's not the new neck that's the problem, apparently- the problem preexisted the neck swap!
How far off is it? And is there any difference at all between the necks as far as scale length?
On a Strat-type bridge, where you have the ability to move saddles fore and aft a bit, I shoot to get the 25.5" mark right smack in the middle of the adjustment range, so that the maximum adjustment is available both ways.
Ash's suggestion to route the neck pocket will work, too, provided that the difference to be routed out is greater than the diameter of the mounting screws- if you're just routing a tiny bit, the new holes will just overlap, and enlarge, the old holes, meaning you'd need to fill the old holes to get a good mount through the new ones.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 18, 2010 16:05:11 GMT -5
Have you got the tools to enlarge the neck pocket? Is there enough room to do so without moving the neck pickup? It think that if you've got a router, even with moving the neck pickup, it would still be easier and less risky than sawing the neck or moving the bridge. I hadn't thought of that. I only have a handheld router and not much experience with it.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 18, 2010 22:32:12 GMT -5
The blue body originally had the maple neck. It's a J.B. Player Sledgehammer. The black body originally had the neck with the black headstock, an Aria Pro II Wildcat Series.
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Post by chuck on Jun 18, 2010 23:04:57 GMT -5
are both guitars 25.5" scale ?
measure the length from the nut to the bridge saddle to find out.
i would guess that both guitars are 25.5 " , so you shouldnt have to cut the neck or rout the pocket.
a simple adjustment might be all you need to do
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 19, 2010 9:43:39 GMT -5
are both guitars 25.5" scale ? measure the length from the nut to the bridge saddle to find out. Yes, both are the same scale: 25.5. When both necks are removed, the Aria neck is clearly longer than the Sledgehammer neck. It has an extra fret or two, which I unfortunately screwed up showing on the picture since the black body got in the way of the end of the maple neck. I can't tell you the actual measurements right now but the one neck is definitely a little bit longer and has at least one more fret. This is possible because the bridge on the black body sits closer to the neck. I mean... theoretically... you could build a guitar with a really long body shape and a neck with only two frets and still have a 25.5 scale, no?
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 19, 2010 10:23:48 GMT -5
Okay, if I understand the problem correctly, you pulled a 21 fret neck off one guitar and put a 22 fret neck from another body in its place. Yes, Virginia, I see your problem... As these are Strat type guitars it's probably safe to say they're both 25.5" scale. You can check this real fast. From the nut to the last fret the 21 fret neck should measure 17.919" (455.143 mm) and the 22 fret neck should measure 18.344" (465.938 mm) If not, tell us what it is, and we'll tell you what you've got... Now, since we've already covered the "cut neck bad" scenario, lets look at your options. Move the bridge or route the neck pocket. It looks like both of these guitars have some manner of whammying device installed. From painful experience, these are not easy to move. A lot of work, as in milling, filling, routing, swearing and an inevitable refinish is involved. Probably not your best option. Routing the neck pocket looks like your best option here. Either way, you're probably looking at a new pickguard, so save your coins for that one. Double check the position of the new neck routing to make sure is doesn't walk into your existing neck pickup position. This may need to be moved to accommodate the new neck mounting position. About now you're probably beginning to see the advantages of buying a neck that just drops into your guitar... Now onto the real meat an potatoes...routing the neck pocket. This may get long, and I may wind up repeating myself from previous posts...but stay with me on this... First the standard disclaimer: DISCLAIMER: Performing the tasks detailed below require tools and equipment. If you have them and a certain degree of experience and skill then you're probably okay. If not, then take it to a good repair shop and have them do the work. Performing anything detailed below incorrectly or in haste can render your guitar into a very pretty piece of firewood.To route the neck pocket you need a router: ...a top bearing router bit, for this application probably a 1/2" diameter by 1/2"-3/4" long: (double check your router adjustment to make sure you can adjust for the guide boards and the depth of the existing neck pocket)...two long planed hardwood boards and one cut to size...you really don't need pictures of these...I figured you knew what wood looked like... ...clamps: (I really like bar clamps. You can get the ones with the ratchet grips, too...)...blue tape: (That's right, blue tape...don't use the cheap stuff...)...and a workbench: (Or any firm, secure surface. ALWAYS CLAMP YOUR WORK SECURELY BEFORE ROUTING ANYTHING)Any good size router will do. Avoid laminate style routers, as the base is generally too small to lay securely across your boards and have insufficient depth adjustment. Stew-Mac, or just about any good woodworking store has top bearing router bits. Avoid too large a diameter or depth on this one. These ain't particularly cheap, but what is... The boards are easily found at any home improvement store. I prefer oak boards 3/4" X 3". These generally cost around $4.00-$6.00 for the pair, pre-packaged. Check them for flatness as depending on how long they've been there they can curl or warp. There's even enough to cut your cross stop piece. Before you begin you'll want to tape the body of the guitar anywhere the boards, bench or router will be contacting a finished surface. You may also want to put something on the bench to protect the finish. Cheap is fine, as I use two thin foamed backed vinyl place-mats stuck together with double-sided tape, foam side out... Lay your hardwood boards even with your neck pocket sides down the length of the guitar body and clamp the body and boards to your workbench. You can use a cross board over the two oak boards to secure them if the throat of your clamps won't allow you to get in close. Since you're not widening the neck pocket you'll want to make sure your boards are flush with the existing neck pocket. For the cross stop piece you'll need to measure twice...maybe three times...and cut once. This is the piece that determines how much closer to the bridge your neck pocket goes. This needs to be dead nuts on. Remember, the neck may be tapered slightly at the heel, so you'll need to check this and make corrections accordingly. You can use small pieces of veneer as shims to make a tight fit if necessary. This cross stop need to fit as tightly as possible into the space between the two long boards as possible without pushing the two long boards out...if not, you'll wind up with not only a longer neck pocket, but a wider one as well... What I do is drill and screw the cross stop into the two long boards, but you can also clamp across the two long boards to secure it. I've also seen guys use duct tape...but personally... This is the tricky part. DRINK NO BEER OR USE MIND ALTERING SUBSTANCES AT THIS POINT! Before you tighten everything up and have at it, you will need to place the neck in positioned level and square to the oak boards and that your stop is in position to allow a 25.5" (or whatever it actually is...) scale from the nut to the saddle of the high E string, adjusted about 2/3 of the way towards the nut. Read that again. A good metal rule is strongly suggested here. Double and triple check this BEFORE you clamp everything down to the bench. Go slow and remember to ALWAYS make your first pass counter-clockwise to avoid ripping gouges in the wood. You'll want to make slow even passes taking as little material away as possible. Don't remove more then 1/32" to 1/16" of material per pass and GO SLOW! If your router bit is too short to cover the entire neck pocket depth then just make two passes starting at the top. If you bought a high quality router bit, and you taped around the area you routed, your finish will probably be fine. Going too fast, or bearing down and forcing the tool is what generally scalds, burns or chips the finish. One quick note about the blue tape. Using cheap masking tape is problematic for two reason. One, it's generally thinner then the blue or green tape, and two, it's more tacky. This makes it harder to remove, especially after it's been clamped down, and it leaves adhesive on the guitar you'll need to clean up later. Spend the extra few bucks...you'll thank me later. Wasn't that fun? NOTE: Now that you have moved the neck you will need to re-drill the neck mounting screws...that's another lesson, but find someone with a drill press...hand drilling mounting holes in a neck is a REALLY BAD IDEA... Well, time to play with the horses. Happy Trails Cynical One (1.5 CEU's awarded upon completion of this class.)
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Post by chuck on Jun 19, 2010 14:17:08 GMT -5
i thought the extra fret ( s ) were only part of the fretboard overhang.
if this is the case , the neck pocket should be fine .
when your guitar is assembled does it measure 25.5" from the nut to the saddle ?
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Post by D2o on Jun 19, 2010 16:01:50 GMT -5
(1.5 CEU's awarded upon completion of this class.) And +1 for it's creation
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 19, 2010 16:02:08 GMT -5
i thought the extra fret ( s ) were only part of the fretboard overhang. if this is the case , the neck pocket should be fine . when your guitar is assembled does it measure 25.5" from the nut to the saddle ? No, it doesn't measure 25.5. It's too long by about 1cm but if it had one less fret it would be the correct length. I should mention that I was wrong before when I said I wanted to cut it an inch or an inch 1/2 or whatever I said. It's only about 1.5cm at most. Both necks are for guitars with a 25.5" scale length. They are not the same length because one has one more fret and is from a guitar on which the bridge is mounted closer to the neck. The spacing of the frets is exactly the same on both necks. There is no fretboard overhang on this neck. I would think the neck pocket should be fine. The only problem I'd anticipate about cutting it would be to cut into the truss rod. But every picture I can find online shows that there should be more than a couple centimetres of wood after the truss rod. Also, the heel looks long enough that if I cut the neck 1.5cm shorter, the bolts would definitely still be going into the flat/screwable part of the neck wood.
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 19, 2010 16:15:12 GMT -5
I know routing the neck pocket seems scary, but read black walnut tele before you perform surgery on your neck. From experience I can tell you that most "neck jobs" don't have a happy ending. Fixing a mistake on a body is much easier then fixing a mistake on a neck. HTC1
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 19, 2010 16:42:10 GMT -5
Cynical1... Dude... my utmost appreciation for your extensive advice... but I'm light-years away from being able to follow it... I don't have the tools or the experience... just some bizarre hope that I can fashion something like a classic Strat out of these parts I paid little for. To demonstrate where I'm at, here's a quote from you: NOTE: Now that you have moved the neck you will need to re-drill the neck mounting screws...that's another lesson, but find someone with a drill press...hand drilling mounting holes in a neck is a REALLY BAD IDEA... I actually had to re-drill the holes in the neck just to get it on this guitar body as it is. I have no doubt you are absolutely correct about using a drill press... but here's a picture of what I used:
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Post by sumgai on Jun 19, 2010 17:51:09 GMT -5
I'm gonna jump in here and relay some advice I learned a long time ago from a trusted luthier..... never modify a body when you can shave a few RCH's off the neck. That wasn't so much as for the finish or the hard work, but for the fact that the body may see a succession of necks throughout its lifetime, but necks are only very occasionally swapped to other bodies. Now, it comes to mind, after re-reading all the preceeding, that the necks in question are of different overall lengths, and not just the fingerboard, but the whole thing. That would explain the differing neck pocket dimensions, both in self and in relation to the bridge. Although the question does arise, how is it that the the undesired neck fits on the undesired body just fine? Anyways, marching on..... So, knowing that nearly all truss rods come from one Master Template (no need to re-invent the wheel for a quarter-inch or so), I'd hazard a guess that the longer-heeled neck is still using the same trussrod. Particularly since it adjusted at the head end, I'd really think that the "butt" portion is located well away from the current end of the heel, meaning, there should be plenty of meat to chew on, before running into saw-teeth destruction. But in point of fact, chuck has it right - why cut the whole thing off, when you only need to undercut the fingerboard? I think I'd lay the neck in a supporting gulley, clamp it down, lay up my jig (to prevent the router from going cattywhampus), and take said router to the heel, shaving back that 1.5cm or so. The depth of wood that needs to go away can be found easily. Insert the neck into the pocket and snug it up. Pencil a line on the neck where it clears the body (and the pickguard, if need be), and let your router bit take out that line, but no more than that. The trick to all of this is, of course, if you remove too much, then you're in worse doo-doo than before. So it behooves you to cut often, in very small increments, until you're sure that you've arrived at the correct dimension. This is one place where I would not trust my eyeballs! newey's assertion above needs more clarification. From the smaller strings to the larger, the string lengths get progressively longer. (There is a step when going from plain to wound strings, but that's not our concern at this time.) That magic 25½ inches is measured from the inside of the nut to the inside of the high E string's saddle. For practical purposes, you can measure to the top center of the saddle - that's so close that there's no reason to argue about it. But unless your fret nut is really badly shaped, then don't measure to the center of that, measure to the inside edge. That's just the way I'd do it, if I couldn't bring myself to find and use a neck that already fits. The only other way that makes any sense is to step up to the counter and give the nice luthier a chunk of your lunch money. HTH sumgai
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Post by chuck on Jun 19, 2010 21:05:22 GMT -5
i agree with routing a little off the neck while leaving the fretboard alone ... you will be creating the fretboard overhang that most 22 , and 24 fret necks have.
i imagine you could use a rasp to rough it out if you have no router. it shouldnt be that tough of a job ... just make sure you leave some room to sand it smooth for a perfect fit
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 19, 2010 22:25:04 GMT -5
why cut the whole thing off, when you only need to undercut the fingerboard? Thanks, that's a great idea. I hadn't considered it and wouldn't think of it because honestly I'm not accustomed to seeing guitars with a fingerboard overhang. None of the guitars I've had around have had that. I like the idea of not losing one of the frets. I really like not having to think that I'll need to use the belt sander to round the end of the neck to fit the pocket. But, really, now... couldn't I just do this with two cuts on the beloved band-saw and some hand sanding? (Plus new mounting holes, of course.)
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jun 19, 2010 22:35:30 GMT -5
Although the question does arise, how is it that the the undesired neck fits on the undesired body just fine? It doesn't. If I said it did, I didn't mean to. It's not attached in the picture I posted. It would be too short.
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Post by sumgai on Jun 19, 2010 23:14:28 GMT -5
BAY, Although the question does arise, how is it that the the undesired neck fits on the undesired body just fine? It doesn't. If I said it did, I didn't mean to. It's not attached in the picture I posted. It would be too short.Then all the advise that's been said above makes sense. And yes, you could bandsaw off the whole unneeded section, but I think you're not gonna like that as much. Well, if you always constrain yourself to the lower 21 frets, then it might be OK..... But as before, take your time, remove stuff in small doses, and constantly check (and re-check!) your progress. Remember, one "aw crap" resets all attaboys! And even before you start this, plug the holes with a good quality filler, to give said filler ample time to fully dry out. Chances are good that you're gonna move the holes less than one full screw-diameter, and you're gonna need all the strength you can get in those regions. And don't forget to allow time in your schedule for finishing the "new" butt end. Raw wood ain't cool, ya know? HTH sumgai
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