HSH to HHH wiring help

[axeman73]

Hello All,
I am brand new to the board. I am upgrading the pickups in my current guitar, which uses a HSH configuration with a 5 way switch,one vol., and one tone. I am replacing the middle SC with a mini HB, as well as replacing the existing HB's in the bridge and neck positions (all with Dimarzio pup's). Since the new pup's are all 4 wire, I would like to take advantage of some of the increased wiring options available. I play in a cover band, so having one guitar that can cover LP,Strat, and Acoustic type tones, be hum cancelling,along with user-friendly pickup/mode switching is preferred, if possible. This arrangement is what I think will get me there:

1. Full Neck Humbucker (Series)
2. Full Neck Humbucker (Parallel)
3. Full Middle Mini Humbucker (Series)
4. Full Bridge Humbucker (Parallel)
5. Full Bridge Humbucker (Series)

I would like to stay away from coil splitting because of hum issues from things like stage lights.

I have a 5 way super switch and DPDT P/P pots that I can use. I just need help laying out the wiring.

I look forward to your suggestions!!!

[asmith]

Axe,

Hello and welcome to GN2. What you want there is very possible with just a superswitch, and is a nice all-round scheme.

You say you want "Strat" and "Acoustic" tones as well.

Strat tone suggestion
If you have DPDT pots, we should be able to work out, using one (or more, but I'm hoping not), a switching scheme that allows to you get "One coil of your Bridge or Neck humbucker" in parallel with "One coil with your Middle mini humbucker." This should give you something getting close to the "Strat" sounds in positions 2 and 4.

Acoustic tone suggestions
Other than inserting a piezo pickup in your guitar, you can do some tone-shaping with a passive device called an 'inductor' as well as a capacitor, to remove the mids. This gets close to fooling people into a more 'acoustic sounding tone.'

Here's a link to a point in a video where he's just about to play with that inductor/capacitor arrangement to cut some mids.

Wiring diagram
There's been talk of schemes close to your original 5-way layout quite recently on the board. I'll see if I can root it out, or draw up a new one, today.

Looking forward to reading other members' input on this.

Hope that helps.

[reTrEaD]

Hi Axeman73

Dec 29, 2011 3:31:33 GMT -5 axeman73 said:

I am replacing the middle SC with a mini HB,

Is this actually a mini HB, or is it a SC sized HB? Dimarzio makes both. Please give us the model number.

Dec 29, 2011 3:31:33 GMT -5 axeman73 said:

I would like to stay away from coil splitting because of hum issues from things like stage lights.

If you split to the north coil of one pickup and the south coil of another, they WILL hum-cancel, when you combine them together.

Dec 29, 2011 3:31:33 GMT -5 axeman73 said:

This arrangement is what I think will get me there:

1. Full Neck Humbucker (Series)
2. Full Neck Humbucker (Parallel)
3. Full Middle Mini Humbucker (Series)
4. Full Bridge Humbucker (Parallel)
5. Full Bridge Humbucker (Series)

This is possible with just the superswitch. No need for push-pulls. But it really doesn't do all that much. You might want to think bigger.

Dec 29, 2011 3:31:33 GMT -5 axeman73 said:

I have a 5 way super switch and DPDT P/P pots that I can use.

As long as you have some PP pots, think about what you might like the switches to do.

You could have one PP change the neck from series to parallel and another change the bridge from series to parallel.

OR you could have just one PP to change whatever you have selected on the superswitch from series to parallel.

Dec 29, 2011 3:31:33 GMT -5 axeman73 said:

one guitar that can cover LP,Strat, and Acoustic type tones, be hum cancelling,along with user-friendly pickup/mode switching is preferred, if possible.

If you want to include Neck + Bridge like a LP, that's possible. The most sensible way to get there would be to have two PPs doing (local) series or parallel, one each for the bridge and neck pickups. Then assign the selections on the superswitch something like this:

Neck
Neck + Bridge
Middle
Middle + Bridge
Bridge

When you have both PPs in (local) series mode, the parallel combination of the Neck + Bridge is just the same as a LP.


If you don't need the Neck HB + Bridge HB, another possibility would be to use the superswitch to select two coils at a time. Those two coils could be from the same pickup. Or they could be one coil from one pickup and another coil from a different pickup. Whatever pair of two coils you want can be wired into the superswitch at each location. Then one PP will determine whether those two coils are in parallel or in series with each other.

Between this and what asmith has suggested, you'll have quite a bit to consider. Let us know what's most important to you, and we can probably come up with something that fits your needs.

[JohnH]

welcome axeman73

I agree with the others that you could consider getting a few more combos from your set up, by adding another switch or two. My approach would be to use the superswitch to pick any two coils that you would like out of the six total, then use a push/pull switch to combine them in series or parallel. So long as each combo contains a north and a south, all are reasonably hum cancelling ad you can have 10 sounds, including those with one coil from each of two pickups.

But first, I also agree with asmith and reTreAd that your original request can be done with just a superswitch. But its not all that obvious. So chaps, of you haven't actually solved it, I recommend it as a nice after dinner puzzle.

John

[reTrEaD]

Dec 29, 2011 6:45:28 GMT -5 JohnH said:

My approach would be to use the superswitch to pick any two coils that you would like out of the six total, then use a push/pull switch to combine them in series or parallel. So long as each combo contains a north and a south, all are reasonably hum cancelling ad you can have 10 sounds, including those with one coil from each of two pickups.

I've looked over the schematics board. You have a couple of designs based on that strategy. Just one PP and a superswitch can be quite versatile while being simple to operate.

Dec 29, 2011 6:45:28 GMT -5 JohnH said:

So chaps, of you haven't actually solved it, I recommend it as a nice after dinner puzzle.

To get the original 5 selections with a superswitch, it's all just a question of recognizing where to make hardwired connections and where you need to assign the poles of the switch. That's where the real creativity is. The connections of the throws just completes the puzzle.

I won't say more, lest I spoil the fun for asmith.

[axeman73]

Thank you all for the warm welcome!! I am totally interested in the possibilities beyond what I initially asked for.

The pickups I am installing are
DP193 Air Norton (Neck)
DP187 Cruiser Bridge (Middle)
DP161 Steve's Special (Bridge)

As far as acoustic tones, I currently use a Boss AC-3 for acoustic using the middle SC and south pole of the neck HB with my stock PUP's, although it's a little thin sounding. I figured the Cruiser by itself or the Air Norton in parallel mode would sound even better!

I like JohnH's suggestions too! I would like to only use the P/P's and Super Switch if possible, as I don't want to drill anymore holes in the body. Beyond that, I am pretty much open to anything!

[reTrEaD]

Dec 29, 2011 8:48:03 GMT -5 axeman73 said:

Thank you all for the warm welcome!! I am totally interested in the possibilities beyond what I initially asked for.

The pickups I am installing are
DP193 Air Norton (Neck)
DP187 Cruiser Bridge (Middle)
DP161 Steve's Special (Bridge)

As far as acoustic tones, I currently use a Boss AC-3 for acoustic using the middle SC and south pole of the neck HB with my stock PUP's, although it's a little thin sounding. I figured the Cruiser by itself or the Air Norton in parallel mode would sound even better!

I like JohnH's suggestions too! I would like to only use the P/P's and Super Switch if possible, as I don't want to drill anymore holes in the body. Beyond that, I am pretty much open to anything!

The cruiser you're using for the middle is a rails type. We can use either coil of that equally well.

I think the neck/bridge combination would be better with the screw coils on the bridge. That would give a stronger contribution from the bridge.

We could use the slug coil of the bridge when combining it with one coil of the middle. This should tame down the contribution of the bridge a little in that combination.


For now, let's consider this as the layout on the 5-way:

Both Neck coils
Neck (north) slug and Bridge (south) screw coils
Both Middle coils
Middle south coil and Bridge (north) slug coil
Both Bridge coils.

The pp on the volume will put those pairs in series or parallel.
The volume control will be wired with a treble bypass network.

None of that is etched in stone, but it's a good enough place to start resuming the discussion.

As far as the tone control goes, maybe JohnH could tell us a little about the "enhanced" tone control he used on his SP designs.

Perhaps asmith could tell us more about those inductor and capacitor networks and how to apply that here.

[axeman73]

I am liking what I am hearing! Keep it coming!

[newey]

axeman-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

JohnH said:

But first, I also agree with asmith and reTreAd that your original request can be done with just a superswitch. But its not all that obvious. So chaps, of you haven't actually solved it, I recommend it as a nice after dinner puzzle.

And reTrEaD chimed in with:

To get the original 5 selections with a superswitch, it's all just a question of recognizing where to make hardwired connections and where you need to assign the poles of the switch. That's where the real creativity is. The connections of the throws just completes the puzzle.

I won't say more, lest I spoil the fun for asmith.

Well, I daresay that asmith is off tweaking his fuzz somewhere ;D ;D ;D. So, I'll have a go . . .




In the above diagram, shield grounds, bridge ground, etc. are omitted for clarity. Wires which cross do not connect, connections are shown by the black dots. DM colors are used.

But I agree with the others, that's pretty limiting. There's not even a single multi-pickup combination. And you do have those 2 P/Ps, which offer up myriad possibilities.

Now, axeman, if you really want the above options on the 5-way and really don't want to split the coils of any of the pups, one P/P could be used to add the neck into the 5-way, for a "Neck On" option, and the other to add the "Middle On". These would both be parallel connections.

This type of scheme would add the LP N + B sound, as well as N + M, M + B, and N + M + B.

EDIT: And, ignore my wonky-looking jack connections, the red is to the tip, black to the sleeve as per usual.

[axeman73]

Thanks Newey! It's not that I want to limit myself. I am just not aware of all the possibilities. What I listed is the minimum I want, but I want to hear all you guys' suggestions. I am all for as many useful combinations as I can get. I just don't want have to do the equivalent of the pedalboard tapdance on the front of my guitar...LOL!

[JohnH]

Here's one I did a couple of years ago - not tested though:



The superswitch picks two coils, in this case adjacent coils moving from both bridge coils, to a bridge and middle, both middle, etc The pp switches selects single or series and parallel.

I think I would change the B/M combo for a B/N combo, but any arangements of two coils at a time is possible.

Also the 220k resistor is better at 150k.

John

[axeman73]

Okay John, I've been studying your diagram and think I understand it. Where would I make the change to get the B/N combo instead of B/M? On the resistor in the treble bleed, are you saying 220k instead of 150k?

[JohnH]

If you are interested in that, Ill adjust the diagram tomorrow - its late here now and its easy to mess up!

On the treble bleed resistor, I did some tests since then and so I now think 150k is the best value for it

[reTrEaD]

Dec 29, 2011 21:53:12 GMT -5 newey said:

Well, I daresay that asmith is off tweaking his fuzz somewhere ;D ;D ;D.

Oh my!

Dec 29, 2011 21:53:12 GMT -5 newey said:

So, I'll have a go . . .

Puzzle solved.

It can also be solved by having two poles connected to the hot buss. But that requires using the other two poles slightly differently than you have in your drawing.

[axeman73]

Yes, I am interested! I appreciate all the help too!!!

[JohnH]

Just looking at my diagram again, and a few questions come to mind:

As I noted above, the idea of it was as a moving humbucker, picking pairs of adjacent coils, so as you sweep through the 5 positions, it gets gradually darker towards the neck. I suggested that I could break that pattern in order to get a N/B combo. Just wanted to check if you would also agree with that, because it is a free choice.

The pp switch on the left forces the selections to pick just one of the two coils, and over-rides the other series/parallel switch. But you noted that you didn’t really want single coil options earlier, so having seen this, do you think you would like to have them, or avoid them and save a switch?

The way its shown so far, when you switch to single coil mode, each of first five coils can be picked, dependent on the 5 way (ie all except the one nearest the neck). Is the bridge pickup covered or uncovered? If its covered I’d suggest just having the screw coil available, since it will sound stronger

[axeman73]

Will I be giving up something else in order to have a N/B combo? My only issue with using single coils is noise & hum susceptibility. I will give them a shot. If I don't like it, I can always rewire it.
The pickups are not covered.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 31, 2011 5:00:57 GMT -5 axeman73 said:

Will I be giving up something else in order to have a N/B combo?

John designed that wiring to give:

Neck
Neck and Middle
Middle
Middle and Bridge
Bridge

You have to trade in one selection to get N/B.
I suggested you trade N/M
John suggested you trade M/B.
The spacing between either of those two pairing is the same, but the positioning is a little different. So N/M is a little smoother and M/B is a little brighter.

It's just a matter of personal preference as to which one to keep and which to trade away. But if you want N/B you have to give up something.

[newey]

But if you want N/B you have to give up something.

Or add another switch. Rather than do that, however, I'm wondering if the "free neck on switch" idea could be added to this scheme, giving the N + B via the tone control. If that can be done, it would avoid losing any setting off the 5-way and still give the N + B option with no added holes or extra switches.

My only issue with using single coils is noise & hum susceptibility. I will give them a shot. If I don't like it, I can always rewire it.

In JohnH's scheme here, all the two-coil combinations of coils are hum-cancelling (assuming like pickups are used; since you're using all DM pups, you should be OK).

Single coils are available, by pulling up on one or the other of the push/pulls. But if you found yourself in a particularly "noisy" environment (meaning electrical noise, not crowd noise . . .), you can just leave the P/Ps alone. All the positions on your 5-way switch will be hum cancelling so long as both P/Ps are in, or both are out.

Now, a long debate could ensue here, as it has elsewhere, over whether splitting a HB results in a truly "Strat-like" SC sound. But if you don't split the HBs, you'll never even approach Strat sounds, which you said at the outset that you wanted. So, this scheme gives you that, but with the option to just use HBs if necessary for noise control.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 31, 2011 10:24:36 GMT -5 newey said:

I'm wondering if the "free neck on switch" idea could be added to this scheme, giving the N + B via the tone control.

That idea is based around pickups that all have one wire always connected to ground. John's circuit has all the coils "floating". The superswitch connects them as needed. That way, a coil that's used as the "top" coil (for the series mode) in one position can be used as the "bottom" coil in an adjacent position.

So I don't think the "free neck on switch" could be made to work in this circuit. But then again, JohnH seems to be the cleverest of the clever around here. Maybe he could make it work.





Here's another thought:

Using a the switch portion of a PP pot to exchange one coil for another in a particular position of the 5-way, instead of having singles available.

That way, all the humcanceling pairs follow the original pattern unless the PP is pulled. When pulled, only one position is altered. And it provides a N/B pair.

[JohnH]

It’s hard to choose with three Hb’s, because you can’t have everything. There’s so many possibilities that ‘everything’ would need so many switches there’d be no room for other stuff such as strings etc.

I dug up this scheme that I suggested because it seemed to be close to what you might like. It follows a particular line of thought about a moving pair of coils, and I think it has a certain symmetry and consistency. Also, its all drawn up and ready to go, and by chance, it was even based on DiMarzio wire colours.

Since you have open pickups, I’d expect that all the single coil sounds will be fine, but as newey points out, you can avoid them if you find yourself in a noisy electrical environment. I think they are worth having though.

I also play in a covers band, and my two favourite settings (different scheme) which cover 95% of what I use are bridge Hb and neck Hb cut to a single coil. In particular with respect to what you do, I also use an acoustic sim (as a patch on my Zoom processor) when I can’t bring a real one, and I find the neck single coil is the best input to it. The coil-cut singles have more high edge to them than a parallel sound.

I can’t think of an elegant way of adding N/B to the scheme without dropping something else off. The coil swapping idea seems like it would need four poles on a switch? And the neck on is also troublesome with this scheme

But there’s plenty of other design directions that you could go, given a 5-way or 5-way super-switch and a couple of other switches. Eg, a standard Strat arrangement of B, B+M, M, M+N, N, and a switch each for B and N to turn them from series to parallel – no singles there though.

John

[reTrEaD]

Dec 31, 2011 14:54:00 GMT -5 JohnH said:

The coil swapping idea seems like it would need four poles on a switch?

It can be done with just two poles.
Go to a position on the superswitch that has the coil of the bridge pickup that you want to use. OR to a position that has the coil of the neck pickup you want to use. Leave the connections to the coil you want to use alone.

The two throws of the superswitch position that were connected to the coil you want to swap out, are now wired to the poles of the PP. The "pushed" throws of the PP are wired to the coil that was originally assigned to that position, as well as any other wires connected to that position. The "pulled" throws of the PP are connected to the coil you need to complete the B/N combination.

Not elegant, but it allows you to keep all the original pairings and sequence, when the PP is down. And has the B/N combination as one of the 5 selections when the PP is up.

[JohnH]

yes indeed, thanks.

So with reTreAds, thought, the 5 way and the two push pulls could do two-coil series and parallel arrangements with each of the three pickups, or each of the three possible pickup pairs. Would need to drop the single coil settings however, unless another switch was added. Or, as I do on my LP, use the tone control pot to turn a series setting into a single coil setting, using the third lug of it. At 10 its a single coil, and 9 and below its a humbucker. It works well for me.

That would offer 5 single coil sounds (but probably just 3 or 4distinct different ones), 6 two-coil single pickup sounds and 6 two-coil combos.

[JohnH]

Further thought on that:

One of the neck coils (the blue one) is only ever connected to ground on the low side, so could be permanently grounded. So then the coil swap could be done with one pole, leaving a pole spare which could be used to engage or suppress the action of the tone control coil cut. Ie, normal operation with this switch pushed in is business as usual as drawn, with simple tone control action and series/parellel options. Pull the switch to give N/B as an option, and also allow the tone pot to act as coil cut at 10.

Too curly?

John

[reTrEaD]

Dec 31, 2011 16:30:32 GMT -5 JohnH said:

One of the neck coils (the blue one) is only ever connected to ground on the low side, so could be permanently grounded. So then the coil swap could be done with one pole,

I don't think that would work. The other coil that replaces it in the swap would also need to have one of its wires permanently grounded, else you need use two poles on the PP.

[JohnH]

But im thinking this blue neck coil is the replacement coil, not the one being replaced. Ive almost drawn it...
J

EDIt: This:...

[reTrEaD]

Dec 31, 2011 17:01:44 GMT -5 JohnH said:

But im thinking this blue neck coil is the replacement coil, not the one being replaced. Ive almost drawn it...
J

Ahhhh, so clever!

Edit:

Dec 31, 2011 17:01:44 GMT -5 JohnH said:

EDIt: This:...

Comparing that to your original drawing, it's a bit less elegant. But it does add a lot of functionality with very few compromises.

I'm not fond of the fussiness associated with using the tone pot at 10 as a coil cut. But that only comes into play with the volume PP pulled AND the tone PP pushed. So it's mostly a non-issue anyway.

You keep the original sequence (both series and parallel) with the volume pot pushed.

Pulling the volume PP gets the modified sequence (Neck south plus Bridge north) in the Bridge HB position regardless of the rotation of the tone control, in the parallel mode. In series mode, the tone control has to be at about 8~9 or less to get both coils.

In series mode (with the volume PP pulled) tone control at 10 gets you the original set of single coils. I don't expect much difference at all between the north coil and south coil of the cruiser in the middle. There just isn't enough change of distance. There is likely to be a reasonable difference between the north and south coils of the bridge pickup. Not only because of the distance between the coils, but also because there is a greater change in harmonics -v- fundamental the closer we are to the bridge.




All things considered, this is a very impressive piece of work. Lots of functionality, few negatives, and all with only 2 PPs and a superswitch.

+1s for a week.

[JohnH]

Thanks for the comments, retreAd.

The tone pot coil cut is a handy idea, that I think I first saw from ChrisK. Its surprisingly effective. On my Lp with Gibson PAF-type pickups, the transistion audibly happens between 9 and 10, with a 500k log pot, wherby the top-end sparkle of the single coil is quickly replaced by the mid-range punch of the humbucker. It so sudden that its actually very hard to try to set something in between, if you would wish to. Then, like most normal tone controls, not much else happens until you get below about 8, in other words, its not a very critical position if you want to find the humbucker, and its audibly very obvious.

If this scheme is judged not too tricky, then I think it will prove to be easy to use in practice. Knobs, in, its very predictable, and the parallel modes are available with one pull. Or, to set say a neck single, 5-way goes to neck and pull the other switch, leaving tone on 10.

John

[reTrEaD]

Dec 31, 2011 23:36:03 GMT -5 JohnH said:

If this scheme is judged not too tricky, then I think it will prove to be easy to use in practice.

Easy enough, anyway. What's most valuable about this is the fact that it stays within the confines of 2 PPs. So no additional holes.

If axeman decides he likes having everything, this gets the job done.

If he doesn't find the B/N useful, it wouldn't take much to re-purpose the volume PP to just do singles regardless of the rotation of the tone pot.

If he doesn't find having singles useful, one snip of a wire makes the B/N mode available regardless of the rotation of the tone pot.

But right from the gate, he has all options available.

[axeman73]

Happy New Year everyone!!! I appreciate the help! These are some really nice ideas. I am going to tryout JohnH's 3x5 Rev. A. I like having all of the available options. I will give feedback after I get it up and running.