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Post by newey on Jun 16, 2013 23:15:29 GMT -5
I am purposely not putting up a poll on this, since I know they're like fingernails on a chalkboard to some guys
But as discussed in the thread here regarding the new software, there are multiple reasons that may behoove us to look elsewhere for a host. And, of course, there is concern about the cost of going to a website-hosted type of environment. We would, of course, be ad-free if we did so.
Which leaves the question of needing to raise funds. Lunaalta suggested that members may be willing to donate to the enterprise, so I'm asking for a show of hands on that topic. Specifically:
1) Would you be willing to give $5 USD per year for the cost of G-Nutz2? What if it were $10?
2) Rather than an outright donation, if G-Nutz2 offered merchandise, such as coffee mugs or T-shirts, with the G-Nutz logo and/or G-Nutz related slogans, would you buy such items, with all proceeds going towards the site?
3) Would you buy tickets to a raffle, with suitable prizes, with the proceeds going to the site?
4) Would you be extremely offended by any sort of solicitation, even if it meant an ad-free, stable environment?
What say you all?
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Post by ozboomer on Jun 17, 2013 1:06:50 GMT -5
1) Would you be willing to give $5 USD per year for the cost of G-Nutz2? What if it were $10? Easily. Yup.. but it's likely to be a bit more erratic, I think. Once you have a mug, you're likely to not buy another one for quite a while... I wouldn't buy a raffle ticket for a mug... but would buy a ticket for a guitar. Shipping to us in the antipodes (and licensing info for "us" in terms of the raffle) could be awkward; some companies may not let "us" run a raffle to include participants that are not resident in the USA. This I DON'T like. The other thing would be to work-out how we collect the $$$. An admin/'treasurer' e-mail might be Ok for PayPal for example.. but I'm not super-across their 'terms & conditions'. Some good options, to start with, anyway... John |
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Post by JohnH on Jun 17, 2013 5:08:52 GMT -5
I'd do 1, 2 or 3, to support this excellent little forum about which I care very much.
But my preference is 1. To provide $10 to the fund with 2 and 3, I'd need to pay more than that, and get a mug that I dont need, or a raffle prize that needs shipping.
So how much might we need to run a forum? the sites that I run are hosted reliably cost free and ad free in the US, I just had to buy domain names for a few $. But we only need to deal with a small number of hits a day, whereas GNuts, even though its a smallish forum, Id guess is of the order of hundreds or more, plus a continually growing amount of content, so I dont know what grade of service it would need.
cheers
John
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Post by newey on Jun 17, 2013 5:58:46 GMT -5
Good question, and one that we're researching presently. One of the main things we'd like is the ability to host our own photos and images, so that we don't lose data when someone's photobucket account disappears. This means that we have to have more than just a basic service.
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Post by b4nj0 on Jun 17, 2013 7:19:18 GMT -5
OK, for the purpose of a show of hands time; I would be happy to contribute depending upon how much it works out to be.
I once paid out to treat another PB forum to one month without advertisements, but it turned out that only the moderator could apply the donation, and since that would have reduced the altruism if I had asked for the 7 bucks to be applied, the cash went down the plug hole. At least this way one could be confident that the money would be used as intended?
Hosting your own images is all fine and dandy, but it could very well take big bites into the bandwidth.
If I understand correctly, failure to keep up annual contributions would result in (temporary?) exclusion or read only access / withheld search facility / no viewing of hosted images? I gather that some of the main contributors are well up to this task...
I hope it takes off and is a success.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jun 17, 2013 9:18:25 GMT -5
I'd probly do 1-3, I dont really get what #4 is. I missed the convo on if we can export all the data from this pb. Is that possible? We dont have to worry about bandwidth or disc space (uploading pics, etc) Unlimited at HostGator, which has been reliable for me for years: www.hostgator.com/shared the Hatchling Plan should suit us fine. $4/month. |
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Post by ux4484 on Jun 17, 2013 10:25:42 GMT -5
$10 a year is a go for me, if just for my previous years use.
From other now defunct forums I can tell you: The cups or goodies were always a break even prospect. Raffles: Keep it small like tuners, stomp boxes, or possibly Gnutz inspired wiring kits (hey, we all like shopping for that stuff) that will keep shipping costs down and they can be donated from "some" members (ample) stock.
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Post by allmektig on Jun 17, 2013 13:55:06 GMT -5
Hm.
$10 a year is no problem at all.
Though, how about some kind of freemium arrangement?
Free for basic access to the board, but you'd have to pay for stuff like search functionality and image hosting options?
Maybe even add a "paying user only "subforum"?
I dunno.
But personally I wouldn't hesitate to pay $10 a year for access to this site.
The add free bit doesn't concern me much though, since I use adblock.
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Post by lunaalta on Jun 17, 2013 14:17:19 GMT -5
Yup! 1 - 3 sounds good to me. Donations sounds best to me. I'm using jaguarpc, everything is free (lots of scripts available and easily utilised). Disc space and bandwidth unlimited!! Also cheap. www.jaguarpc.com |
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 17, 2013 14:52:31 GMT -5
I am purposely not putting up a poll on this, since I know they're like fingernails on a chalkboard to some guys But as discussed in the thread here regarding the new software, there are multiple reasons that may behoove us to look elsewhere for a host. And, of course, there is concern about the cost of going to a website-hosted type of environment. We would, of course, be ad-free if we did so. Which leaves the question of needing to raise funds. Lunaalta suggested that members may be willing to donate to the enterprise, so I'm asking for a show of hands on that topic. Specifically: 1) Would you be willing to give $5 USD per year for the cost of G-Nutz2? What if it were $10?
Well, I would, but with all of the free resources existing out there as it is I don't see a growth in membership. Potentially just the opposite. Taking the Public Television or Radio model here in the US as an example, only about 10% of all users of that service contribute. And we don't offer regular content. We are more of a reference site.
I guess the unknown in all of this is would someone pay money to ask a question that may, or may not, be the answer they were looking for or could utilize?
I may be dating myself with this, but here's the first mental image that popped into my head reading this: 2) Rather than an outright donation, if G-Nutz2 offered merchandise, such as coffee mugs or T-shirts, with the G-Nutz logo and/or G-Nutz related slogans, would you buy such items, with all proceeds going towards the site? Sure. Guitar picks, mugs, t-shirts...stuff like is cool, and something the regulars would buy. Might even act as a catalyst to expand the site. Or, leave one of us with a lot less of their spare room to utilize for domestic purposes.3) Would you buy tickets to a raffle, with suitable prizes, with the proceeds going to the site? Probably not...but most of you all know how my luck runs...4) Would you be extremely offended by any sort of solicitation, even if it meant an ad-free, stable environment? Well, I block ads. I'm sure I'm not the only one. And I'm not convinced this is a viable means of supporting a site. It can act as a supplement to other income, but to me the jury is still out on that being a valid paradigm anymore.What say you all? Going solo is a big step. There are regulars here who know what I mean. It can be very time consuming and will generate real costs.
While the latest ProBoards upgrade has caused some bumps and oddities, and certainly is a motivator for change, I'm still firmly on the fence in taking this on as a unique entity. My first impulse is to look for another forum host that allows more control and admin capabilities.
But hey, just playing Devils Advocate again...
Happy Trails
Cynical One |
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Post by JohnH on Jun 17, 2013 17:18:00 GMT -5
I think that uf we do choose to go to a system that needs funding, it should be such that it can be adequately supplied by voluntary payments from a small number of members who choose to do so. Then it can still be free to join and to use, avoiding the issues that cyn1 describes.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jun 17, 2013 19:27:08 GMT -5
And actually, I have the hostgator account with unlimited domains (and bandwidth and storage and dbs) so, I could throw the site onto my account for nuthin. Besides domain, there really shouldnt be any other costs. We should be able to do this with free membership.
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Post by lpf3 on Jun 17, 2013 20:22:05 GMT -5
Well, I guess things haven't changed all that much, I just typed out a whole post & then lost it somehow & had to start again. Makes me feel right at home.
It's been a few months, I'm glad to see everyone's still nutz- hope everyone's happy & healthy.
I'd be perfectly happy to pay/contribute in the form of a donation or annual fee. I would buy merch too, but as ozboomer said, that would be sporadic. I don't care either way about a raffle, I may or may not participate.
While the donation idea works for me, I agree with c1 regarding new members. We probably wouldn't get any.
By the way......
Thank you guys for the birthday wishes.
Blue Murder came out fantastic, Cyn. Great job! If I ever make it out your way I will expect you to demo every switch.
ux- nice to see you comin' around again......
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 17, 2013 22:01:06 GMT -5
Blue Murder came out fantastic, Cyn. Great job! If I ever make it out your way I will expect you to demo every switch. I might be coming your way sooner. I'll demo the switches for you, but I'll need a signed waiver if you're gonna try it yourself... Good to see you again, buddy. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by newey on Jun 17, 2013 22:05:12 GMT -5
I did not envision a system where new members would be dunned to participate. I'm thinking strictly voluntary donations by those who can do so and wish to do so. Sort of like Nutz Busking . . .  I can see the problem Ozzie raises with selling merch- how often would we have a buyer? Looks like, so far, a consensus is developing around just making donations. Actually, it may make sense to have a couple of revenue avenues. That old thing about having all one's eggs . . . |
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 17, 2013 22:56:36 GMT -5
Hope this doesn't come off as ungrateful...
I'd be willing to pitch in some dollars for a renovation, or in the case of an emergency to save our house. I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of an ongoing contribution, though. I definitely won't pay any sort of membership fee, and frankly just don't want to take on any formal responsibility for the financial viability of this forum.
I think trying to pay for anything off of merchandising is probably not a great way to go either. I haven't been able to find a print-on-demand service where the base prices are low enough to allow for selling the goods at decent prices and still make any meaningful profit, and the idea of paying up front for some pile of merchandise to sit in somebody's basement or garage or something...
I haven't really kept up with all the discussion re: the new software and stuff. Nor do I really end up doing any "behind the scenes" work around here. So I may be missing something, but it seems to be working about as well as it ever has and about as well as most of the other forums I frequent. If it's a choice between a maybe not perfect, but relatively stable proboards forum and whole lot of money, time, and effort to move to a new place with a questionable future, I'd vote for staying put.
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Post by col on Jun 18, 2013 0:38:51 GMT -5
Hi, I agree with the comments about merchandise - I think it will cost more to produce it than you would ever raise in sales. It also gets you into more complications with a shopping cart, missing goods, complaints, returns, etc. I should point out that the donations route is rarely successful as a revenue raising exercise for websites. Having said this, I would donate $5-10/year. And, since GN is more like a small club, with no real alternatives for the more enthusiastic members, I think taking donations would work better here than at most forums. GN is a successful forum, but it is not busy. GN makes use of images, but it is not image-heavy. I don't think you will require huge amounts of space, nor lots of bandwidth (since traffic is fairly low). Most forum software will allow you to control the dimensions and file size of uploaded images. Most hosted plans also include image optimisation software, which when used with a suitable forum software, will automatically optimise uploaded thumbnailed images. If GN allowed 200KB as an absolute limit for image files (and let's assume an average of about 100KB per image), you could have 10,000 images per GB! Now, let's have a look at, for example, what Godaddy has to offer, If you use a forum software that can create thumbnails of uploaded images (check for 'GD Module' with the forum software you are considering and that the host has GN Module compiled on the server), you should save some considerable bandwidth there. Personally, I prefer thumbnailing so that I do not have to load and scroll though loads of large images. www.godaddy.com/hosting/web-hosting1.aspx?ci=9009Even the most basic package offers 100GB of space. GB could easily allow larger files than 200KB and still be fine. The other main consideration is bandwidth. Godaddy states that it is unlimited. This is a lie. They might not meter it, but I can assure you that other metered services will be monitored, and these metered services will increase as bandwidth increases. However, GN is not a busy site. I'm sure forums far busier than here runs on these more modest plans without problem. I have never used Godaddy to host a site, but I've seen sites similar to my own run on their servers with few problems. Of course, there are many other hosts you might choose. It is just that Godaddy is holding a sale at the moment. I would not purchase space much up front, if at all (as was suggested by someone in the announcement about the new PB software). If you are unhappy with the service and wish to leave, you will not receive a refund (at least not outside whatever trial terms they offer at the outset). Just a thought - you could, if you wish, offer a GN email address to each member donating $5 or 10 per year. Yes, with the cheap Godaddy plan you will have only 100 addresses available to you, but I think you will find this to be more than enough. And if not, you will be doing so well from donations, you could easily afford a better plan with more or unlimited e-mail addresses. You might even assign a special group to those who donate to GN ('GNutter', maybe ) The greatest possible problem for this forum and a basic hosting plan is server load. I think, though, most well developed forum softwares will not create undue server load for a forum with this amount of traffic. You could always ask the host ahead of making a purchase if a particular forum software runs OK with a particular plan. Col. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2013 0:42:23 GMT -5
And actually, I have the hostgator account with unlimited domains (and bandwidth and storage and dbs) so, I could throw the site onto my account for nuthin. Besides domain, there really shouldnt be any other costs. We should be able to do this with free membership. throw me the root password, and I am pretty sure I can try and succeed searching/choosing/installing the best BBS out there. Problem is time, so I will need a second sysadmin. I will have the time in summer tho. Most platforms provide such staff automagically these days tho. |
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jun 18, 2013 15:11:07 GMT -5
Finding and installing a forum is the easy part. There's pretty much Vbulletin, Simple Machines and phpBB.
The possibly impossible part is getting a copy of this db. And then, the hard part will be converting it to whatever software we want to use.
Isnt that a deal breaker? Getting the current db?
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Post by sumgai on Jun 19, 2013 0:21:33 GMT -5
JFrank,
Getting the current database in an easy and quick manner is a non-starter.... ProBoards is rather two-faced in the TOS when they say that they don't own any content, it all belongs to the board's creators and participants. And yet, no one, not even the Real Admin can copy anything by way of making a backup of his/her data (postings/threads, membership roster, forum customizations, nothing is available). I do have to admit though, with the roll-out of V5, the Real Admin can back up his/her layout templates, stylesheets and plug-ins, those are now available, and that's a start. But as things stand at this moment, the necessary stuff, like what we would want, is off-limits.
As I see it now, one or more of us can spider the Forum manually, which won't trip the PB watchdogs, and in that way we can capture pretty much everything. But taking that raw captured data (saved to one's machine in textual HTML format, no doubt) and formatting it into something usable by another BBS package (I'm familiar with VBulletin and phpBB), that's gonna be a real challenge.
If the stories are true that PB will leave a board intact so long as there is a modicum of activity, then I'm of the mind that we refer back to this place as often as needed, while posting new topics/threads in our new home. After a period of years, two things will have happened: a) a self-contained history will be built-up on that new board; and b) fewer and fewer posts will refer back here because much of that built-up history will be a near-duplicate of what we have here, i.e. someone will copy&paste as needed from here to there, with links to images, etc.
The one thing that newey and I will insist on is the ability to back up everything to our home 'puters. If we can't do that, then we keep searching, pure and simple.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 1:02:40 GMT -5
If the crawler (spider) is instructed to wait in random sleeps (e.g. varying in the range of 30->60 seconds for a start) thus emulating a human, I think the watchdog part will be dealt with one way or another. In the extreme case, the crawler could even act as an ordinary Internet Explorer browser to eliminate chances of getting busted. The hard part would be fine-parsing it into something that could be directly imported into the schema of the chosen next BBS. (users included). This is what i would classify as a medium (to very hard) difficulty migration task. There has to be completely setup, all the requirements, all technical aspects must be apriori known in order to build up a migration strategy. I don't think this could be a one man's task. This has to be coordinated, and a specific discipline must be held throughout the project.
Having said that, it strikes me that the proboard Real Admin claims that backups are not possible not even for him.
If we take this path, I could take some task(s) of it, from the crawling part to the final import part (but there is always the possobility of failure). The smooth time-stretched approach that SG proposed is also possible, and could be a better approach.
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Post by sumgai on Jun 19, 2013 11:50:14 GMT -5
gd, Coming to think upon it... I do wonder how those other conversion scripts work. I mean, former PB forum owners didn't have any more ability to directly access and copy the main database structure and content, they could only access what you and I see, the HTML pages as they are presented to the viewing public. That means that someone went to the trouble of building a textual data converter, parsing out the meaningful data one line at a time, and then storing the results into a database, one field at a time. In itself, this is not hard, but what does make it hard is the fact that not every page is presented consistently. Not even for the same user during a session, let alone from one user to another. Non-members don't see the same thing as registered users, staff members see something different, and newey and I, well we get even more stuff to wade through, on our way to figuring out what the posting is all about. All of this is done behind the scenes, meaning in PHP on the server, and not in javascript, Perl, or any other browser-supported methodology. (I'm aware that you know all this, but others are reading here too, so ChrisK gets a nod - Learning Is.) Actual spidering can indeed be done safely if time delays are inserted. Just remember, the last time I did this, in October I think it was, it took nearly 4 hours to grab the basic stuff. (I exclude member profiles, and I link only one level down/away, just to grab images from hosting sites.) The gathering isn't always successful either, sometimes it goes "bump", and it thinks it's done. In fact, I can include/exclude certain file types... once I went after only off-site images. It still took more than 2½ hours to vacuum things from places like ImageShack, Photobucket and the like. ... I just checked my spider program (UltraWeb), and indeed it does have a delay function built right in there.  Unfortunately there's no randomizing option for that delay.  So I might try this again, starting with a delay of 45 seconds, and see what happens when I let it run overnight. What's really sad is that I've got a fairly complete copy of most threads from back then, but we've gotten a lot of new stuff since. And of course, it's now laid out in the new version's style, so I can't just take what's new and combine it with the previous backup, that'd be a nightmare to try and write a converter for. Best to just try for the whole enchilada, in the new format of course, and then develop a converter for that. If I get banned by PB for this, I've got newey's off-board email, so I can let him know what's what.  I'll just claim my Wi-fi was hacked or sumpin'...  sumgai |
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 19, 2013 14:32:44 GMT -5
OK. We all agree scraping the existing GN2 forum will be a crapshoot. We're going to lose data, members, etc... I kind of have to go with Ash on this, it ain't that bad with the update that we can't live with it if too much data goes South.
To me, the real and only motivator behind any exodus and migration would be to break out from under the existing Admin structure. PB limits access, understandably, and sumgai and newey are locked in a bunker by themselves running this place. They can't promote members because the only one who can is perennially AWOL.
So, I guess it comes down to how much can be scraped, is it enough to make it relatively seamless, or is the motivation to gain more access and control worth the data dump gone awry.
The Devil you know...
HTC1
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Post by haydukej on Jun 19, 2013 14:38:18 GMT -5
Seems like there is only one logical way of fundraising for this board...  |
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Post by newey on Jun 19, 2013 18:23:55 GMT -5
Sure, why not? The original worked so well for Joel Rosenman and his friends. . .  |
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jun 19, 2013 19:13:42 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2013 2:59:54 GMT -5
In itself, this is not hard, but what does make it hard is the fact that not every page is presented consistently. Not even for the same user during a session, let alone from one user to another. Non-members don't see the same thing as registered users, staff members see something different, and newey and I, well we get even more stuff to wade through, on our way to figuring out what the posting is all about. All of this is done behind the scenes, meaning in PHP on the server, and not in javascript, Perl, or any other browser-supported methodology. (I'm aware that you know all this, but others are reading here too, so ChrisK gets a nod - Learning Is.) Just by looking at the HTML source, the messages are contained in <DIV>s with class="message". If we parse for the content *just* those divs, we have the content. While <H3>s with class="title aria-hidden" just before the class="message" <DIV> denote the holder of username and date information. Can you check that the same holds true for your privileged account as well? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2013 3:06:28 GMT -5
Another problem is the progression/consistency of categories, sections, subsections, threads, pages, posts (if that hierarchy is correct). So we gotta build a conceptual model for the existing boards, think out of all the bindings with HTML DOM entities/elements, build a conceptual mapping of the old entities and the new ones in the new software and then try to build a system that would directly parse individual pages, yet be able by using the aforementioned mapping to put them in the correct context in the new system, so that the above hierarchy (categories, sections, subsections, threads, pages, posts ) be preserved and finally make it to a final product which makes sense (or sort of sense). So, since (as Cyn1 says) there is no rush, the current boards serve the purpose for now, we could gradually start to think over it, with no pressure. |
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Post by lunaalta on Jun 20, 2013 9:08:01 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Jun 20, 2013 12:39:24 GMT -5
greekdude is correct, we're not in an all-fired hurry to get outta Dodge. newey and I are still doing the back-channel thing, checking out various options presented so far. Stay tuned for more on that. In the meantime, JFrank's link was a good start - thanks for that one, buddy. The pages I see are exactly as gd describes them, so there wouldn't be any extra problems in that regards. That is all for the moment, do carry on! sumgai |
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Unfortunately there's no randomizing option for that delay. 
So I might try this again, starting with a delay of 45 seconds, and see what happens when I let it run overnight.
I'll just claim my Wi-fi was hacked or sumpin'... 
