Nighthawk HSH redux

[JohnH]

Thanks reTrEaD, it looks like you are reading it the way I thought of it!
cheers

[ubertech]

WOW!!! 


Thanks JohnH: Amazing! and exactly what I was after. As soon as ReTrEaD has completed the verification,  I'll put it together and get back to you with a feedback report.

now onto the next question:

Do I add in the varitone?  So much for simplification!




Thanks again JohnH, ReTrEaD and all you other stunning contributors - I am ever grateful. 

[JohnH]

Ok, yes, best to let reTrEaD finish checking.
Have you got the varitone parts yet? with the inductor?
Also, what make of pickups do you have?

[ubertech]

I have most of the parts hanging about from my effects pedal builds. The only thing Ive yet to source is the inductor

Though the original epi nighthawk wiring didnt have a varitone, it did have a coil in the circuit - I have never found out what it is - I wonder now if it was an inductor, i still have somewhere so I'll dig it out and maybe someone can identify it


pickups:

Neck - SD custom mini humbucker (8.5k ceramic)
Middle - SD quarter pounder strat (14.5k alnico 5)
Bridge - OBL slant rail humbucker (OEM no data but wired as per Bill Lawrence pups) - looking at replacing for SD slant humbucker JB model 


UT

[JohnH]

Its handy that they will all end up as SD. It means the diagram should work directly.

For the inductor, theres a few diagrams that use 1 5H but if i was getting one, Id go for 3H. The plots of response look more interestingm How many positions on your rotary? Ill suggest some cap values to go with it and show you the likley response.

[reTrEaD]

John, it all seems to work as-advertised. Wouldn't hurt to have another pair of eyes on this, though. Maybe Newey or Ash?

[ubertech]

For the inductor, theres a few diagrams that use 1 5H but if i was getting one, Id go for 3H. The plots of response look more interestingm How many positions on your rotary? Ill suggest some cap values to go with it and show you the likley response.

 I have a 4P6T rotary available so I was planning on using that. I noticed that the gibson blues hawks dont have an 'off' position on the rotary, but use a push-pull as a 'true-bypass'

I would like to avaoid another switch (varitone on/off), so I was thinking position 1 for the varitone would be 'off' so the tone control worked as per normal. I was wondering though, if Gibson included the 'true bypass' as they found that even with an 'off' pathway the residual varitone circuit altered their 'off' sound. Maybe their reasoning was just to have 6 different sounds from the varitone plus bypass and there is no effect in the manner I described. 




DO you have an idea on the wiring for the varitone, including:

• how to incorporate the most transparent version of an 'off' in position 1?
• and how it would connect to your new system above?

[JohnH]

It looks like you have quite a hot set of pickups. So I reckon one option that you should have in some way, is all off, no varitone, no tone pot load. There two ways to get that, one is using one of the rotary positions, the other is to convert the tone pot to no-load. Either will be fully transparent and need no extra knobs. But the conversion of a push pull pot to no-load is a bit unusual (Greekdude did it though)

But anyway, the basic arrangement should be inductor (if included in a setting), cap and pot, all in series. Here are some plots, based on a fully off position (thick dark blue), and various caps in series with a 3H inductor:



Other than the 'off' setting, the pot is at minimum, ie 0 resistance. You get quite an interesting range of notch filters created. Also shown are some standard cap values at minimum tone, no inductor, and the red line is a 500k pot at max. the difference between red and thick blue is the extra for the fully off or no-load setting.  You could have any 6 of those settings, or 5 if one of them is the fully off on the rotary.

If the tone knob is not at minimum, the tone transitions up to normal, but the interesting in-between tones seem to be at quite low settings. These are at 2.5 on a 500k pot, or 5 on a 250k pot:



The red to thick blue is now showing what happens when you disconnect a 250k pot. A bigger jump than for the 500k 

Lots of options. I think I'd use an unmodified 500k pot, let position 1 be all off ie no load, and pick two caps with no inductor and three with 3H inductor. What do you think? 
 

[JohnH]

Oct 7, 2016 10:54:00 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

John, it all seems to work as-advertised. Wouldn't hurt to have another pair of eyes on this, though. Maybe Newey or Ash?

Thanks for checking. With that and my checks, I'm fairly confident it will do what it says on the box.

[ubertech]

Great - two checks and you both agree; I would say that's worth a build I will get on with the main switch bit over the next week


as far as the varitone goes:

Lots of options. I think I'd use an unmodified 500k pot, let position 1 be all off ie no load, and pick two caps with no inductor and three with 3H inductor. What do you think?

I completely agree. I will check whether the push/pull I have is a 500k, and if not I will order one in to the main scheme in preparation for the varitone addition.


Those plots are amazing and so useful - i will pobably experiment with values in the end, but first thoughts are:

1. no load - brilliant
2. 2.2nF
3. 15nF
4. 2.2nF 3H
5. 10nF 3H
6. 47nF 3H

by the graph that would become more and more extreme cuts in the lower mid range; very interesting, especially for recording.

In terms of layout, which lug feeds the pole of the rotary, and do the cap+inductor arrangements just shunt to ground?

[ubertech]

Hi Guys



I have had a chance to build the Strat SP HSH scheme above by JohnH and it all works as advertised.

To be honest it sounds absolutely amazing on the night hawk; the combination of single coil/humbucker series/parallel and out of phase options is mindblowing and easy to use. 

The only variations I made were:

• replaced the ground circuit with a star ground system - super quiet with the the fully (copper tape) shielded cavities
• the bridge pickup is still the stock OBL slant (Bill lawrence), so I change the wiring to accommodate this
• I will also move the series/parallel so it is on the push/pull, and move the split over to the separate switch as from a user point of view this is more convenient for mid-song switching

• This is so much better than the previous system, beefier in terms of audio and quieter in terms of noise - A definite winner. It sounds so good I am going to miss out the varitone as their would be too many options, maybe keep that for my 335 
  

Attachments:

[JohnH]

Hi ubertech
Thanks for posting that. It's made my day!
J

[ubertech]

HI John 

Please can you check something for me>


In centre position of the five way the bridge coil is cancelled in both positions of the coil tap

It took me a while to realise it was neck coils only, because the sound only cuts completely when in centre position in series, and I hadn't used that setting, but after noticing the silence, I checked the rails by tapping them and they are definitely not on in that position.

Now it may be that I have messed up something in the wiring as the coils are also not hum cancelling in 2/4 as far as I can tell.

Please can you double check the wiring of the diagram when engaged in the centre position, to see if it's my wiring or the diagram.


Thanks as ever, UT

[JohnH]

I had a stare at it but could not spot a problem. Maybe someone ekse could have a check too.

The kind of issue that might cause such problems while still looking like the diagram (and assuming no extra shorts or bad joints) could be if the wire colours are not right, or if the bare ground screen on the B pickup is directly connected to one of the coloured wires from B (as it might be in standard wiring).

[ubertech]

That's good enough for me JH!


when I installed the new scheme, I changed the earths to a star ground and also rewired the bridge (OBL) pickup wiring to match Seymour colours to prevent confusion (all checked). 


You may have something though - The Bridge pup earth goes straight into the star ground, but the Neck earth is connected to the green (neck south start) left over from the previous wiring, so this may account for the error; it certainly gives me somewhere to start looking

If not, it is likely my error as I swapped the series/para and split switches over to get the split on a separate rotary and I may have may have made a boob there.


One further point - To ensure hum cancelling in 2 & 4 which way should the middle pup be orientated?

Thanks for the help - I will report back

UT

[reTrEaD]

Feb 5, 2017 16:30:14 GMT -5 ubertech said:

One further point - To ensure hum cancelling in 2 & 4 which way should the middle pup be orientated?

Orientation is irrelevant for hum-cancelling unless we're talking about flipping the pickup upside down. What matters is the magnetic polarity. If the middle pickup is north-up, you need to use the coils that have south-up magnets (if the combination is connected for in-phase string sensing).

Same magnetic polarity on coils that are connected for out-of-phase sound gets you hum-cancelling.
Opposite magnetic polarity on coils that are connected for in-phase sound gets you hum-cancelling.

Lengthy discussion here:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/6311/explain-hum-cancelling

[ubertech]

Hi All

looking at John H diagram I may have found something on the S2 series/parallel switch: I have attached the black (ground) to lug 4 (top right) as I thought that is what the diagram indicated.

Was this correct? should the black wire be to the lug, or attach to the body of the switch to connect the switch with the other grounds on the other switches?

[JohnH]

That black wire is intended to go to the lug. The slightly sloppy drawing has a small gap to it!

[deebog01]

Jan 18, 2017 15:47:23 GMT -5 ubertech said:

Hi Guys

View Attachment

I have had a chance to build the Strat SP HSH scheme above by JohnH and it all works as advertised.

To be honest it sounds absolutely amazing on the night hawk; the combination of single coil/humbucker series/parallel and out of phase options is mindblowing and easy to use. 

The only variations I made were:

• replaced the ground circuit with a star ground system - super quiet with the the fully (copper tape) shielded cavities
• the bridge pickup is still the stock OBL slant (Bill lawrence), so I change the wiring to accommodate this
• I will also move the series/parallel so it is on the push/pull, and move the split over to the separate switch as from a user point of view this is more convenient for mid-song switching

• This is so much better than the previous system, beefier in terms of audio and quieter in terms of noise - A definite winner. It sounds so good I am going to miss out the varitone as their would be too many options, maybe keep that for my 335 
  

Love the look of this setup!  I've never done guitar wiring, so forgive me if my questions here are elementary.  I'm restoring my 28 year old strat and upgrading pickups from stock to Dimebuckers and a Texas Special (using a bridge pickup to simplify wiring with humbuckers since the middle pickup in texas special sets are reverse-wired) in the middle.  So... ceramic bridge and neck HBs with an alenco 5 SC in the middle.  I have 2 concerns:


1: Additional vol pots to control pickup output discrepancies in series and parallel - can I add a volume pot between each HB north cable and the super switch (while keeping the illustrated volume pot as a master volume)?
2: Trying to figure a way to add another tone control.  Move tone connection to "coil 1 / Hot / position 1" and add another to "coil 1 / Hot / position 4?"  But then I'll loose tone control when coils are split...?

Any help is greatly appreciated. 

[deebog01]

Drew up a diagram... but can't post the scan.  

Need more posts?

[reTrEaD]

Mar 28, 2021 4:13:00 GMT -5 deebog01 said:

Drew up a diagram... but can't post the scan.  

Need more posts?

Not about post count, we're no longer allowing attachments to be uploaded. If you want to display an image, use the Postimage Upload button.

[deebog01]

Sweet.  Thanks!

I drew this up sticking in the single tone, but added a concentric pot for volume on humbuckers... Does this look like it could work?

[newey]

deebog01-

Unfortunately, I can't enlarge the image, and can't see the connections well enough as it is. Can you enlarge the diagram (just a bit) and repost it?

[deebog01]

Thanks for taking a look.

This any better?

[newey]

A bit better, but it's still pretty tough. The coil cut switch wiring looks fine, I can't make out the wiring to the phase switch, and the Superswitch wiring I can see but it's tough to follow the connections.

I think the issue here is that it looks like you started with a layout diagram of the pickguard and components, and then tried to lay the wiring over the top of that. The nice thing about a straight wiring diagram is that we don't care about the location or size of components, just their electrical connections, so things can be spaced apart or placed wherever to minimize the visual "spaghetti"

Of course, my eyesight isn't what it used to be, maybe someone else can take a better look.

[unreg]

Mar 31, 2021 22:30:26 GMT -5 deebog01 said:

This any better?

hi deebog01. I’m not able to respond to your diagram observation request; but, I thought maybe if you could scan your diagram at a higher DPI (dots per inch), it would be much clearer when zooming in.

Though, I’m also not sure about the DPI limit held to all of the images posted with this forum. Maybe you’ve already reached the max. It does make a difference if the DPI limit is reached from a really high DPI image. So, you might try scanning at a lofty DPI level... and then converting that down here.

[deebog01]

Oct 5, 2016 14:30:23 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Ok well here is my offering, for review:



The way it works is similar in principle to the SS and HSS versions of the SP. The key thing is that the 5 way uses its four poles to select two coils or pickups out of the three. The left and right sides do coils 1 and 2 respectively, and the top of the 5-way does the 'hot' side and the lower part the 'cold' side.

Then, now that we are down to just two pickups, they are presented to the other switches for series/parallel, split and phase options.

The varitone circuit could be wired in to replace the tone cap.

Relative coil polarity is important for humcancelling, and so since M has been identified as a south coil, B and N usually split to a north coil. But for the N and B combos, B gets cut to a south coil. This is done by flipping the polarity of both N and B and grounding the B series junction to its cold side (hence changing which coil is selected to south) but N always splits to the same north coil. The same principle usually looks after hum cancelling in Oop combos. There was one setting I couldn't quite fix for optimum hum cancelling, which is out of phase coil split N and M. Everything else is humcancelling if such is possible.

In positions 1 and 5 only one pickup is selected, and it goes in the 'coil1' position. 'Coil2' is not active, but the ground side of coil2 is used to make sure coil1 gets a ground, in case the series switch is also activated in which case it would otherwise not get a ground.

A small extra, if you select Bridge with split, operating the phase switch will change which bridge coil is provided.

That is all presumptuously assuming it's all right, which is subject to checking....

cheers
John

It's based on the quoted diagram.  Everything is the same (or should be) except for the initial routing of the black wires from the humbuckers.  Instead of soldering them onto the super switch directly, I'd like to wire them first through concentric volume pots (shown in my diagram as the one closest to the strings), then on to the switch from there.

I've read that volume pots will short to ground at 0 depending on which way you wire the input... not sure if that's even a concern in this case.  Anyhow, here's my working diagram again in the highest res Postimage will allow.  But like I said, it's just like the quoted diagram, but with the mentioned addition of volume pots.  

Really cool of y'all to take a look!  

[JohnH]

Thanks for posting the diagram, but Im sorry to say it will probably not work properly that way. The basic scheme is not good for individual volume pots. The added pots are taking signal to ground and can dull or cancel the tone and mess with the phase switch too. This is a scheme where there's quite a lot of aspects of the switching which are optimized to work together and the extra volumes will throw those off. Its really designed around a master tone and volume.

[deebog01]

Thanks, JohnH

Wasn't sure if I could just throw those vol pots in there the way I did without affecting sound.  Any Ideas or links to diagrams that might work for this setup? 

Really want to keep the classic fender pickup selection style (split coils with B/M and N/M in switch positions 2 and 4) while also being able to select N/B only (or even all 3 simultaneously if possible).

I know it seems like I'm reaching for a do-all guitar here.  She was my first guitar back in middle school; we've been thru a lot! Now I wanna give her a new life as 'that guitar I always dreamed of!'  I've even tried planning in a blend pot... but I'm 100% in the brainstorming stage right now.  Still have 3 weeks to wait for the clear coat to dry on the body!

[JohnH]

I was thinking about what you could do with your HSH build. The Strat SP HSH above which you based your sketch on would still be my best offering. If you wanted to have the third pot to fill the spot on a Strat, I think Id add a bass cut to go with the treble cut, and keep the rest the same. Another option could be to add what I called a 'fade' knob in the other SP designs for SSS and HSS. What it does is gradually fade down one pickup, only when in a series pair. Both of these ideas for a third pot allow you to control the excess thickness that can occur in series combos.