Did you ever think of taking the results of your extensive research & development of this sustainter.. and buy the parts in bulk and make up a kit version to sell ??
Many times...
It is still very much a DIY proposition and it is more than simply an effects box. Even if I were to do a "kit" it would be a substantial commitment with circuit baords and all...And the heart of it is very much the driver...
To make it worth it to do a substantial amount of the building by hand, you'd be looking at something approaching the cost of the commercial units already out there...
I do want to do it, and perhaps next year, especially if we have something of significant improvement to the commercial units. There are many applications where the DIY sustainer is the best or only option (7 string guitars, difficult installations, electro-acoustics, etc)...but it would be a custom piece of equipment all the same.
There are some substantial improvements in the wings and I may do something very basic in the new year. A new member, col (from scotland) has joined in with a new approach to the circuitry..
I have some of my own ideas involving preamps for both the sustainer and buffering the guitar, a modular system that will be smaller and easier to build and install...and...there is a new generation of sustainer driver being developed ...the rail pickup style EMIbucker.
I have an idea for a variation on this and if the EMI can really be controlled to the extent I hope, the pickup and driver could replace the mid coil in a strat and retain neck and bridge pickups to drive and hear the guitar. I also have plans to try stereo amplification to enable beter polyphonic sustain and have some interest in remote power over battery power for the whole guitar.
So...the thread has really been busy lately and looks like continuing to be so. I unfortunately am going through difficult personal times that does not allow me to do any practical work on developing this project, let alone a kit for it...but as I say, I have plenty of new ideas (as do others) that I am just itching to try out...
I also have a hankering to do some stuff with pickup design. Perhaps the ultimate sustainer incarnation will be a drop in pickup/driver replacement and a bit of a rewire. My guitar (featured here) is well on the way to such a thing, it just needs some refinement...
The parts are ultimately cheap, it is the labour that costs...I think the markup would be more than 25% unless it was simply supply of parts. I would prefer to be able to offer something unique and guarrenteed to work for a fair price. Such a thing should be competative with a drop in quality replacement pickup and certainly a commercial sustainer...
Anyway...thanks for the complements and the interest, if nothing else the thread is entertainment and food for the brain...the guitar is a lot of fun to play too and is still working fine! [glow=blue,2,300]pete[/glow]
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
Did you ever hear of the guy John Simonton at PAIA in the southern US ?! ?! Since you are overloaded personally at the moment, his company offers kits for guitar by mail. Check them out, probably you could negotiate something with him whereby he would sell your kit, and you get a percentage of each kit sold, to cover your research costs and all ow you to continue further developments. It may be easier than you going into business by yourself because they have all the infrastructure setup already of handling mail orders and requisitioning parts in big quantities, etc.
And yes I agree with you, you want to be sure that your kit would be truly competitive with commercial sustainers, unqiue and guaranteed to work.
And as far as power goes, I personally vote for power-over-guitar-cord option... either that, or some onboard lithium cell phone batteries (ultra cheap and easy to get anywhere you are in the world) that are rechargeable easily..
FYI: for 4real and everyone interested... I just found some wicked cool online videos of the $399 Kramer Infinity Sustainer Guitar at musicyo.com ... Guess what, they are sold out of this guitar... That should tell us something about the demand for these really cool infinite sustainers... 4real if I were you man, I would definitely look into partnering with someone to make up a kit and sell it, bro !! IMHO you could definitely ask for and get $100+ per kit..
You guys have got to see this video of the fernandes sustainer kit ($220 from musicans friend online order).... TOTALLY wild !! If you could make a kit to do this.. (ask the guy at PAIA).. for a cheaper price.. probably many guys would buy one.
At the moment I am working towards a driver that replaces the mid pickup on a strat guitar. I am hoping that the poweramplifier part of the section could be incorporated into the driver unit as well...
What this would produce is a very low mod, drop in like installation, with a wider tonal range than is presently offered (use of both pickups, and either to drive the sustainer) and a much easier installation (no bypassing of guitar's electronics, so simpler switching...much smaller circuitry) and possibly momentary control with a push button switches (so that sustain and harmonics can be added at will on the fly)
While there has been quite a few developments in circuitry lately (on the sustainer thread), to make this work the driver needs to be very well designed to control EMI. Work has been done with dual coil "rail" pickup-like designs. There are other options too.
Such a device may get slightly beyond the average DIY'er if it hasn't already, but provide something unique and superior (in many ways) than what is presently offered in the market.
This has always been the aim of my work, to move forward the technology and make it available to others. If a reliable system as I am describing can be developed, I may well make it available...
As to cost...all the cost is in the handbuilding of such things. They are more labour intensive than stompboxes to make for instance (and look at the cost of hand built boutique FX)...you will have to have a very good looking driver if you expect people to install it on their instruments for all to see...
As a price mark...I have always looked at the price people are prepared to pay for a good pickup replacement as a guide...maybe I should look at the boutique FX market too!
You can see though, that there are some deals on whole sustainer guitars that are pretty darn cheap and don't involve the modification of your present instrument...so even though people want these things...how do you compete with that...
Well...something even better is how...price alone won't cut it.
Most people, these days especially are not DIY savvy and have enough trouble even wiring a guitar...this thing will always be a lot trickier to install than replacement pickups and have to accomodate a battery too...
It is only when people actually get their hands on this device...or at least hear something that only this thing can do...that the desire really sets in. Sure, it is a great idea...but it is the fun of playing the thing that is really addictive.
Those videos are impressive in thier own way, but this thing is capable of a lot more...I am disappointed by the promotion of this thing...
In particular, the ability to play sustained notes cleanly, to control and automatically generate harmonics and it's use to create pads and drones with chords are unique features of such devices...
The other thing is the influence it can have on your technique, style and composition. It is only when people start looking outside conventional guitar lines and riffs that the true potential of this device is revealed...
So...how influential and the demand for this kind of thing is, is yet to be seen...it may ultimately end up being a relatively rare novelty with no real artistic development...
Either way, I will, along with others with an interest, continue to develop and attempt to make this device more available to as many as possible...
thanks for your interest... [glow=blue,2,300]pete[/glow]
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
I personally would really like to see this as a relatively straightforward quick drop-in add-on to any guitar.
If you could get it made up pre-assembled with consistent high-reliability surface-mount parts and machine-wound driver coil, that would be even better.
External version would work with every guitar (electric or acoustic!) on the planet.. internal version would require installation by a guy with a woodworking router so would be less of a market as it would exclude all high value vintage instruments.
Hi guys...thought I'd drop in an update of where the sustainer project is at and where it is headed...
We recently passed 70,000 visits and have well over 2,000 posts spaning 141 pages thus far...we are getting about a hundred hits a day it seems...pretty amazing stuff, surely a record for a forum thread....here is a link to the current page...
So far we are still using a single coil driver and simple amplification but there are a few interesting refinements and improvements being worked on...
Dual coil drivers and various novel designs are being explored...a simple jig to make bobbinless, coreless epoxy coils has been successful and there has been a lot of work on a "forward-feed compressor".
This type of compressor is fairly rare but the idea is to compensate for response due to the effects of the guitar's action. Higher frets respond better and quicker as the string is pushed down close to the driver. It has been a bit mind game to understand the concept and it still needs a bit of development, but it would promise some improved performance.
For my part, I have done no practical work on the project, but am planning to do something more with it in the new year. Specifically, I would like to aim for a mid driver with a built in amplifier to fit in strat type guitars. The device would require room for a battery and two switches and tiny preamp and would allow for the use of both neck and bridge pickups in sustainer mode.
A lot more work will be required to achieve this...most importantly the design and construction of a driver with exceptionally low EMI...but there are some interesting plans in that respect...
Such a system would be more like fitting an active pickup and make the thing a lot simpiler and versitile...we will have to see if this can be pulled off of course, but with such interest and contributions of many talented people, the thread continues on...
[glow=blue,2,300]pete[/glow]
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
nice.. I like how you make continual improvements with the goal of KISS (keep it simple sonny)... I really believe that some of the most effective devices are the most simple ones..
Anyway...things have moved a long a little since I built this guitar. The cutting edge are rail drivers (dual coil drivers) and we will soon have a mid driver ver soon I think...
Here is an example of a DIY HB sized driver made recently... Works really well...
Other developments is a circuit by Col... This is a preamp with forward feed compression that gives the sustainer a more even response...it also can provide four modes, not just fundumental and harmonic...cool...
Plenty of other developments as more and more people make and develop the ideas further. The simple single coil driver and basic amp circuitry that mine uses is still a good place to start...
In fact the simple approach, still appeals most to me, and I like the full on sound of the stripped down sustainer...
My next version should have a new simple compact circuit (easier than above) and a mid driver. The adavantage of a mid driver (which has it's own problems to do with EMI reduction) is simplifying installation. A side benefit is that it will enable the use of different pickups to be used (neck and bridge) both to source the driver's signal and for tone variation...neato!
So...I thought I'd bring this topic up again for a little background on another thread I intend to post here on more conventional wiring problem/options...
I have a new guitar, H/s/s strat, and intend to make a new generation sustainer for the mid position. This will mean the conversion of the guitar to a two pickup version (H/S) with basic five way switch...so looking for good options...
look out for a new thread addressing this mod soon... [glow=blue,2,300]pete[/glow] (aka psw/4real)
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
Until I saw this thread, the thought of a sustainer had never really crossed my mind. So, I spent most of the day doing research on it. As it is, I fail to understand exactly how it is wired. Would someone here have a diagram/schematic I could look at? (or have be able to explain the wiring). Edit: Could someone explain how the pickup is wired to the output? To me it sounds like the pup being used to drive wouldn't reach the output, just cycle through the driver. Also, could some explain just how harmonic sustain is achieved?
the sustainer should be in parallel with the output. like splitting the signal to two amps, only one's inside the guitar and has a magnetic driver rather than a speaker.
as i understand it, harmonic sustain is generally achieved through distortion. the idea is that the string is most easily excited by frequencies which correspond to it's natural fundamental, but will also resonate to certain multiples of that freq. The first octave up is easiest. It also tends to be the dominant frequency (sometimes even overpowering the fundamental) in many of the most common distortion devices.
OK...here is the thread looking for contributions to the wiring mod for my new strat 3 to 2 pickup conversion, getting ready for mid driver sustainer...
Until I saw this thread, the thought of a sustainer had never really crossed my mind. So, I spent most of the day doing research on it. As it is, I fail to understand exactly how it is wired. Would someone here have a diagram/schematic I could look at? (or have be able to explain the wiring).
Basically the sustainer is an electromagnetic driver, like a speaker coil, that is designed to vibrate the strings in response to a signal. This signal can be supplied in my designs by a simple amplifier, or provided with more features and control with preamp circuits as posted above.
A preamplifier is important to prevent loading and to provide the power amp (typically an LM386 chip based circuit) with a suitable signal. Different people try different things, typically the circuit used is a fetzer single transistor preamp and an LM386 ruby circuit, I use an LM386 circuit with additional filtering and a two transistor preamp with filtering and a lot more power...others have developed even more sophisticated circuits as above...
SO...
To me it sounds like the pup being used to drive wouldn't reach the output, just cycle through the driver. Could someone explain how the pickup is wired to the output? the sustainer should be in parallel with the output. like splitting the signal to two amps, only one's inside the guitar and has a magnetic driver rather than a speaker.
Pretty much. My pickup is hard wired to the circuit and to the controls, the sustainer is only on when power is supplied to the circuit.
Installation can be tricky. For a single pickup guitar a SPDT switch can be used to turn on the power, but for multiple pickup guitars like mine, you have to bypass all other pickups (both hot and ground) and auto select the bridge pickup...on my guitar this require a 4PDT switch...
Also, could some explain just how harmonic sustain is achieved?
as i understand it, harmonic sustain is generally achieved through distortion.
NO...actually it is easy and elegant, but does not involve distortion or signal processing...simply reverse the phase of the driver or the source signal...or even flip the magnet on the driver!!!
How it works is that in this mode, the driver is in reverse...it is trying to suppress vibrations...what occurs is that the fundumental frequency is blocked but related harmonic frequencies are driven instead. Which frequencies are in part the position of the driver in relation to the fretted note...sometimes it sounds and octave above, others a fifth and an octave, sometimes even higher, but always related to the note sounded...
To achieve this effect I have a simple DPDT phase switch wired on the driver leads to reverse the signal...just as you would phase switch a pickup.
You can also achieve some of this effect by varying the output capacitor of the poweramp circuit...this will vary according to the guitar and the effect desired as to what you want to acheive. On my guitar, I use a 100uF output capacitor to give it a treble bias and aid the driving of the higher strings (which can sometimes be a little difficult as they don't have so much metal in them and are tighter). The result is that the lower strings/notes (up to a on the g string second fret) morph into a harmonic feedback note over time, while the rest of the guitar consistantly feeds back the note as played...
I quite like the effect and is a little like the "mixed modes" possible with some systems and in Col's circuit above which has 4 modes of operation.
Anyway, thanks for the interest...and stay tuned for even further developments in sustainer technology soon... [glow=blue,2,300]pete[/glow]
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
If reversing the phase of the driver (or source unit) is what creates the harmonic mode, then would one tell whether the pup(s) and the driver are in phase in the first place. Also, then would they be in phase if they have opposite magnet polarities and are wound opposite directions? Sorry about all the question, but with the main thread as long as it is, I don't even know where to start looking at it.
Lastly, instead could one use a pre-built pre-amp, likestore.guitarfetish.com/25migubociti.html ? Its just a thought. I personally would rather to have the experience of building my own pre-amp.
Sorry about all the question, but with the main thread as long as it is, I don't even know where to start looking at it.
The "real" thread is quite long, mainly from discussions like this, so I don't blame anyone for not reading it, that's not really the intention, it is more of a 'discussion'...that said there are a few "tutorials" over there that are a little more accessable...
If reversing the phase of the driver (or source unit) is what creates the harmonic mode, then would one tell whether the pup(s) and the driver are in phase in the first place.
not sure if I understand the question...but it doesn't matter as the harmonic switch will reverse it in relation to the signal (or driver) to select the correct mode...
It may be that with a mid driver (present sustainers only allow for the use of the bridge pickup) may have different "effects" depending on the phase and position of the selected source pickup...could be a good thing, may be confusing...we'll see...
Also, then would they be in phase if they have opposite magnet polarities and are wound opposite directions?
Lastly, instead could one use a pre-built pre-amp, like store.guitarfetish.com/25migubociti.html ? Its just a thought. I personally would rather to have the experience of building my own pre-amp.
Yes...though it could increase the price of the project...you would most likely need to tone it down a little with a 10k pot between this and the poweramp section.
On my guitar this is on the face of the guitar as a sensitivity control, but I haven't found it to be particularly useful for performance, better to have a trim pot inside and adjust to the guitar and control the effect with picking strength and damping...
You, of course, still need to have an power amplifier circuit such as the LM386 design to provide enough power...
This commercial product does demonstrate the possible size using SMD components that a sustainer circuit could be using the DIY type ideas, but then SMD is not really a DIY possibility at present...perhaps one day we will standardize the circuitry and produce something as small as this for the whole project...as it is, our designs are significantly smaller than those currently on the market...
The reason for this is primarily with the driver designs...you will hear quite a bit about my "thin coil theory" of driver design...this has held sway for subsequent designs. The idea is to intesnsify and contain EMI directly under the string and to provide a driver that will react quick enough not to have to rely on complex phase correction circuitry outlined in the patents...we just use a simple amplifier...
Another benefit of the "thin driver" idea that I utilized was to combine it with a conventional pickup. You see, my driver coil is only 3mm thick....recent designs like that of Avalon's HB driver above use parrallel coils of 13.5 ohms each (thinner wire) and yet are only 2mm deep...so you see that the devices are tending to get thinner...
I hope to make a driver design which may also contain the poweramp within it, even with conventional components, and still fit in a SC slot...that means that you would only need to have a preamp like this in the control cavity, and the battery of course... There is even the possibility of remote power through a stereo lead if that's of interest...
All these diverse approaches and the answering of questions is what makes the sustainer thread as long as it is, if you were to be attempt this, I can't recommend highly enough joining in on the conversation of there as there are quite a few experienced people willing to help with the project...and you will likely need it, as simple as it seems...
The whole thing is a bit of a balancing act, but it is intriguing, and a lot of fun to play...start out simple and develop ideas along the way...some are coming back now to revisit successful installs with new driver ideas, so the next generation of designs are well on the way...
Thanks for the questions, happy to help... pete
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
Good question...YES... always good to know what you're getting in to, a lot of false hopes out there and unrealistic expectations of what even a sustainer is or could be...
There are a few extra threads than the main thread, links were given earlier in this thread...
I created the above "sounds thread" for this reason and encourage others to post their results where they can be found...
There is a problem with the server tonight at PG, but there is a tutorial/pictorial of the making of my pickup driver in that tutorial section of PG that takes you through the steps pretty well...
Let me know what you think, my recording technology is a bit primitive...basically it is recorded directly to the PC and monitored through headphones without an amp...Korg AX1G effects processor into the mic input of the computer with audacity...no editing and improvised...
Is there any video and/or audio posted anywhere of any of these designs that we could listen to ?!
A member at PG who has made a single coil sustainer like mine has a short video of testing it on utube...
It works a lot better fitted into the guitar, and proper string damping can be used to tame the thing down...this is however the correct way to test the device...check the circuit works with a speaker, then test the driver works by holding it above the fretboard. Only then should you consider fitting and switching options...this can get tricky...
pete
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
I have begun work on one of the new generation sustainer drivers for my next guitar (a strat) that will replace the mid-pickup...
It is a lot more work to make, still not "hard" but fiddly...
It is made like a dual rail SC pickup but has two 3mm coils wrapped around cores made from a hacksaw blade and a lot of glue. The two coils will be wound in parallel so that each coil is 16ohms each...that's a lot of winding (0.2mm wire...4 times the winds of the SC design) and it is taking a lot of work, glue and ingenuity to get it to the dimensions dictated by my design and the size of the magnets I'm using (three ferrite craft magnets from the $2 shop ($2=8 magnets!!!)
So far, so good and the price is right (about $5 worth of materials)...several others are working on similar designs and a few have been built and there has been some preliminary testing. Changing the design, does mean that some of the things like wire guages may have to be reevaluated and this will come with experimentation as people try this out...
It has been a long time since I have been making these things myself and it's kind of exciting to be working on a new design again...
Hey there...well here is the more finished version of the driver above...
What we have here is a two coil, parallel driver of the kind of thing being developed as a new generation of the DIY sustainer project specifically designed to work in the mid position of strat type guitars or similar.
This prototype was made, not only to be a successful driver, but to test various construction techniques. It has effectively, bobbinless coils wound around shaped (with an angle grinder) hacksaw blades for the cores. It is heavily potted in PVA wood glue while winding then sealed with epoxy after pressing the coils in a vice...there will be no vibrations or microphonic effects with this device! It also incorporates some magnetic shielding techniques (additional blades on the sides of the coils) and is the size of a typical single coil pickup.
To that end, it has been successful... I have tested it by holding it above the strings of the sustainer strat that started this thread with it's own internal circuitry and appears to have a stronger drive. The dual coil design has also seemed to completely cured the "pop" on switch of of the original design...which is nice!
Whether or not it has completely been a success is unknown as it is designed to be mounted in the middle position, replacing a mid pickup and work with both the neck and bridge pickup and greatly simplify instalation. As the sustainer strat has a middle pickup whose field interferes with this driver and circuitry that bypasses and forbids connection any but the bridge pickup in operation...this has not yet been tested.
It is not know either whether my specifications (2x16 ohm parallel coils of 0.2mm wire) is really the best for this type of driver. I suspect that slightly thinner wire would make things easier to construct and give better performance...but that will have to wait for another time...
The next step will be to prepare the new guitar with a complete rewire and remove the middle pickup...build some circuitry (though I can test it with my present circuit)...and give it a more definitive trial. Hopefully it will be successful, but there are further things that could be tried and I am confident that this, or something like it, will meet my goals...
BTW...the indicator lights are invisible when off but give a strong glow when on and are built into the driver itself. They are SMD LED's used in mobile phone keypads and very tiny and shine through the white electrical tape on the outer edge of the driver. The LED will be shining up directly at the player and not be a gaudy addition to the guitar...of course the LED is just a little fluff and can be ignored, but I do find an indicator light to be of some use...it reminds me to turn it off, falters when the battery is too low for proper sustain and looks kind of cool...
Anyway...some interesting techniques were developed to build it, and as a hobby, $5 in materials is not too bad ;D
will keep you guys updated...
pete
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
I've been putting some thought into building a sustainer guitar (mostly because I just picked up the perfect guitar for it for $10). I'll probably wait until someone on the PG forums can really test a mid driver, but there is a question that's nagging at me: Is just the coil that has to be super thin? I've been reading the PG thread, and I don't like the bobbin-less approach, so would a millimeter (or so) of bobbin on each side of the coil(s) cause any problems?
I've been putting some thought into building a sustainer guitar (mostly because I just picked up the perfect guitar for it for $10). I'll probably wait until someone on the PG forums can really test a mid driver, but there is a question that's nagging at me: Is just the coil that has to be super thin? I've been reading the PG thread, and I don't like the bobbin-less approach, so would a millimeter (or so) of bobbin on each side of the coil(s) cause any problems?
The bobbinless idea is in part an effort to make the thing smaller and to do away with the hassle of trying to make a bobbin...even to make a bobbinless coil, you need a jig or temporary bobbins to wind to really...this was mine for the above driver...
Here are the parts... Here is a driver made earlier by PG member avalon that uses convention bobbins... Here is a driver underconstruction at the moment by PG member mrjstudios using temporary bobbins that will be replaced by neater bobbins to size when coil dries...still in process... Here is a neat diagram showing the rail pickup like structure of the device...
If you look at mine, although it was wound without bobbins...cover pieces that are the equivielnt of bobbins wer put over them and a fair amount of epoxy and electrical tape that wouldn't have been necessary with a bobbin wound coil...
Basically...it is just a thin coil close to the strings that is required...a bit of a bobbin or an extention of the blades a little above them is fine. That diagram is a little misleading BTW. The coils would be much thinner. Mine is 3mm deep, avalon's 2mm on his previous Humbucker sized driver and about the same here. The distance between the top of the coil to the top of the blade is about 1.5mm on mine...
Anyway...hope that helps...will be a little while before mine is fully tested in the middle position...a $10 guitar sounds perfect for this project...no problem with sustain...
pete
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
Okay, I must have missed that diagram on the PG thread. Before I start tracking down wire, magnets, and the like, I have (atleast) one more question: Is there any reason I could not use a metal (magnetic) bobbin, and simply attach magnets to the back? I was thinking that it would time saving, since the bobbins would naturally attract and require minimal binding. It also would eliminate the blade/pole.
BTW, it sustains pretty well right now anyway.... but I've always liked over kill.
Is there any reason I could not use a metal (magnetic) bobbin, and simply attach magnets to the back? I was thinking that it would time saving, since the bobbins would naturally attract and require minimal binding. It also would eliminate the blade/pole.
We haven't tried it but there are two problems with this proposal that jump out...three if you consider that mking a metal bobbin seems a lot harder to do than my notched bobbinless blades...
>1...the metal bobbin will induce eddy currents that will effect the efficiency of the coil and so it's ability to drive the strings... >2...the magnetic field shape will be radically changed by such a scheme. It may even be that the magnetic field just circuits through the bobbin itself and is effectively shielded from the strings and so creating no drive
Consider...there are reasons we don't see such strategies in pickup design...the driver is similar in concept, working in reverse, just as speakers and dynamic mics are similar...
BTW, it sustains pretty well right now anyway.... but I've always liked over kill.
Actually, the sustain from the sustainer is quite different from a guitar's natural sustain...it is feedback. Although it is more controlled and predictable, it sounds the same really as a really loud and responsive guitar...and behaves like one too, you really need to watch the string damping or it will play itself! It will also do this clean and produce harmonic effects as a bonus...
Some people are attracted to the sustainer because it brings out these qualities in a guitar without the volume...infinite sustain is a bonus also. Of course it excels in those santana like long notes and for smooth legato and tapping techniques...all those things easier when playing loud...
pete
BTW... in the process of rewiring the strat to take the new driver so things are coming along there...we still do not know how this will go in the middle position or if it is the "best formula" for the device (wire guage and general design, etc)...
Already I can see making another, even if it does work, to improve a few things, but I suspect I would use the same general construction technique as I did with this again...
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
ok...another update...the guitar has been rewired for the guitar and so the middle pickup slot is free to take the "new generation" sustainer that we are developing and it's construction illustrated above...
Today I fitted a baseplate to the driver and wired and installed the device onto the guitar...here are the first fuzzy camera phone pics of the project so far... Looks pretty good...but will it work in this position? It was impossible to test it with the middle pickup in place and even then, testing it above the strings is not a fair test so near to the other pickups...the tolerances are pretty tight and this thing needs all the help it can get to be successful...still, all seems well so far and I have tested the device in the usual manner so at least I can say it would work as an improved neck driver with the usual bypassing...but that's not really the point now is it!
It is going to take a little getting used to having this thing so close to the strings right where your picking hand goes...but that is something I will need to adapt to, the benefits are worth it if it is successful.
Interestingly,I have made no permanent irreversable modifications to the guitar at all...a rewire and removal of the pickups, installing a superswitch for more variety in selections with the two pickups...but otherwise...nothing, not even a hole drilled so far.
As well as the mid driver...I wish to try out a few more ideas, but the mid-driver concept is important for these to flow on. Momentary control (via a miniture tactile switch to add sustain/feedback/harmonics on the fly...similar to the way you may add a little tremolo arm to a note is one such idea.
Another is the idea of building some of the circuitry into the driver. You will see from these pictures that the driver sits substantially above the surface of the guitar (due to the thin driver design concept) and so substantially leaves the whole pickup cavity still free to take circuitry.
One benefit of this scheme is that you eliminate EMI causing driver cables threading through the guitar...only buffered signal leads. Another benefit is that the circuitry required to fit within the control cavity will be very small (preamp only). Even in this guitar with quite a small cavity, you could fit such a circuit and a battery inside with no modifications other than the control switches...
If I can get this mid-driver and it's associated developments working...installing a sustainer (which is a difficult and invasive operation with commercial units) could be no more difficult than installing active pickups into a guitar.
To illustrate that...compare the "vision" I am suggesting and gradually coming to fruition, to a typical fernandes install... not only is the circuit large but the switches are wired to it so you don't get a choice of location or style...and that circuit board, even built with SMD is pretty big and requires routing...who knows where the battery fits...
The kind of circuitry required for the preamp may not even be any more elaborate than this buffer I found in my research... even DIY...this kind of thing is obviously a lot easier to build and install than this kind of project...obviously not as big a deal, that's for sure...
anyway...just updating with a typical big post...will let you know how it goes and any other developments when they come along...
pete
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
Ya know, I'm following along here, just minding my own business, when it suddenly dawns on me, like the Doom of Krakatoa, that I have an E-Bow, and I haven't used it in a coon's age. So I dug it out, and fired it up. Whoopee, that's how you spell fun!
But the thing is, if you don't hold it pretty near to the pickup, you don't get any effect at all. In short, the field generated by the E-Bow is just as strong no matter where you place it, but the pickup won't respond to what the string is doing (vibrating under the influence of the E-Bow) until the unit is pretty close, physically.
I don't pretend to understand the why's and wherefore's of all that, but I thought I'd mention it, just in case. It could explain why all those sustainer pickups currently on the market have the generator coil and the pickup coil so close to each other.
HTH
sumgai
As close as I'll ever get to being serious, at least here in The NutzHouse:
The truth is not propaganda.... unless you believe the truth can hurt you.
the thing is, if you don't hold it pretty near to the pickup, you don't get any effect at all. In short, the field generated by the E-Bow is just as strong no matter where you place it, but the pickup won't respond to what the string is doing (vibrating under the influence of the E-Bow) until the unit is pretty close, physically.
Thanks Sum...the ebow is a bit of an enigma to me also, and I do know what is inside it! It is a wonderfully simple device with a design that no one has been able to better. The pickups sense the signal from the ebow itself I suspect making it louder and so driving the string harder. Part of this will be some distortion but as the ebow can be manipulated this distortion can be used to effect or regulated by the bowing action...
Not so the sustainer driver...it is fixed in place...which brings me around to your next observation...
I don't pretend to understand the why's and wherefore's of all that, but I thought I'd mention it, just in case. It could explain why all those sustainer pickups currently on the market have the generator coil and the pickup coil so close to each other.
Well actually the pickup and driver are as far away as possible from eachother. A sustainer will only work from the bridge pickup and source it's signal from the same...otherwise you get screaming uncontrolled oscilating feedback as if you put a mic in front of a PA speaker (and for the same reasons).
The ebow also has the benefit of only needing to put out enough power to drive one string at a time, not deal with multiple frequencies and does not use it's internal pickup in the signal chain...
That is why the mid-driver is such a challenge and would open up quite a few doors for developments in other areas if(when) it is successful.
Now...I have done a few experiments and after a bit of a false start I am getting distortions and such that I don't find acceptable...and no drive on the high strings (explainable by several factors that can be addressed). I am getting infinite sustain and it is working in the region before runaway feedback.
These tests were done with a messy circuit and wired in after the controls with croc clips (noisy) and so are not conclusive...more work required...
I did build a couple of cute little circuits to give an idea of what might be possible though...check there out... The first one is a TDK7052 1 watt poweramp circuit...the one in front in the second picture is a modified version of the orman buffer circuit posted above.
After building them, I am not sure that these will meet the puposes of the sustainer and the buffer was really built cause I had the parts...both work and the buffer may find use in this or another guitar to improve the signal...easy and cheap to build and very small...worth considering if buffering is something you are interested in.
Anyway...will have to leave the project for a little bit...work and kids, kids and work...but I will test it some more and if necessary, build an even better driver that will work...
thanks for the interest... pete
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
Hey guys I'm new here but I have a question about this sustainer kit.I have converted a line 6 variax over to one of my strats and I want to add a sustainer to it.Now because the variax does all the modeling seperately I just need to install a driver(pickup) and a circut to just vibrate the strings(no audio going through the circut).Since the project guitar forums are down, i'm wondering if anyone has the info to make what I want to do.
Hey guys I'm new here but I have a question about this sustainer kit.I have converted a line 6 variax over to one of my strats and I want to add a sustainer to it.Now because the variax does all the modeling seperately I just need to install a driver(pickup) and a circut to just vibrate the strings(no audio going through the circut).Since the project guitar forums are down, i'm wondering if anyone has the info to make what I want to do.
I know that the PG forums have gone down like this for a few days before, so don't fear, it will be back again. Join in at the main sustainer thread when it does as I can't be everywhere, get auto updates of postings and there are more people who can help with this, besides myself, in that forum.
Nevertheless...you have found me here for now. I have often thought that the variax is the ideal instrument because it uses piezio pickups and so is immune from interactions between the driver and the magnetic pickups that inevitably occur. Even if you do have magnetic pickups on the guitar they can be bypassed during sustainer operation as in my original strat at the start of the thread.
The project is not for the faint hearted so you may consider a commercial unit. However, our DIY technology is coming along and may soon (if it hasn't already) surpass what is presently available. Of course it will work out cheaper if you have a bit of basic equipment and experience with electronics and be customised to your requirements.
The first thing to do is build a driver and basic circuit and test it completely outside of the guitar...the driver can be held above the strings (ebow style) without modifications to the instrument...this point is very cheap and intriging...it is here that people get hooked into the whole thing.
The mid-driver idea is still undergoing develoment but the neck position driver and a pickup/driver in the neck position is well tested and built by quite a few people now. We even have a slightly more elaborate circuit that gives four modes of operation and can be operated from a rotary switch.
I also think that these new dual coil drivers (like the mid-position drivers) are slightly better than my original single coil device, though the single coil is a good place to start and is quite servicable. They too may require a little more development. I am also reviewing the "standard" circuitry for the device as the fetzer/ruby circuit seems to be giving some, some problems...I use a different circuit myself.
So to build it, make a simple amplifier circuit such as the fetzer ruby (layouts and part lists are available) and build a basic driver to start with and test it outside the guitar. You will probably need to make a second driver as you will learn a lot with the first, so in this initial phase...don't worry too much! The wire is cheap and you can reuse the magnet if need be.
The sustainer takes the signal from the guitar and, like a speaker, uses an electromagnetic coil to vibrate the strings, just as in a speaker the coil vibrates it's cone to move air. The difference between the type of sustainer I have developed is that the driver design (very compact and generally described as "thin") is such that it will run from fairly simple amplification. This means reduced circuit size and complexity than the commercial units....and much lower cost.
Driver's based on my model could be built so "thin" that it could even be mounted to the surface of some guitars. The coil on my original drivers are only 3mm thick but some have even made dual coil drivers with only 2mm coils!
You will need to dedicate some time and experimentation and withstand some degree of frustration...that is the reason why the original thread is so long (200 pages now) as members there are only too keen to share their thoughts and experiences to help your project suceed. With every one of these things built or attempted, a little more of the puzzle is revealed and the project forwarded for everyone who comes after.
If all that has not put you off, please join me and others here and over at PG when the forums come up. As for this site, I can heartly recommend it for all things wiring and guitar mods and endevour to include the sustainers progress here on an intermitent basis...
The guys here were incredably helpful in the wiring of my new project guitar in preparation for this new phase of the sustainer project. Eventually I would like to be able to offer the chance of sustainer technology with little more skills and outlay than changing a pickup and a little rewiring...it is coming along, but there is still a little ways yet to get to this stage. I may offer "kits" at some point in the future, but for now can only offer advice and encouragement...
cheers... pete, aka psw, aka 4real!
Mr D.I.Y. Sustainer ;-) [/IMG]New Project...'jazz strat' ... Seagull project and mini PA amplification
Thanks for your reply Pete.I have a fernades sustainer kit but the thing wont work,maybe its DOA,I dont know.However I have more than just one variax and I have a crap load of old single coil pickups to butcher,so do you have to use a blade for the pole pieces or will the stock ones work?Is the principle just having a driver(pickup) being driven by the circut(amp) that makes this thing work?I am just trying to break it down to basics first then I can go about making the thing.I do have some electronic skills but even better I have two guys that can help me that are well estabilshed in guitar electronics.So if I had schematics of this ruby thing which I will look for and a "how to" on making the pickup driver I am good to go.Again I do not need to run audio out of this,just drive it to vibrate the strings.
