Info on PRS 35th Anniversary wiring

[nerd]

Hi there

Can anyone share opinion on this wiring please. I know about partial splits with resistors as used in DGT model but never seen one with small volume caps. What do they do?

drive.google.com/folderview?id=1tBgmbbLImD9N9dNLsR6ITaytVOtyKY4w

Its for Custom 24, 35th Anniversary. I believe same type of wiring is veing used on new CU24-08

Thank you

[newey]

sorry, nerd, but I can't open the diagram you linked rhere because it's in your Google Drive account, and it wants a password from me for access.

You will need to use one of the methods to upload images which we lay out here.

[nerd]

Feb 11, 2021 6:59:52 GMT -5 newey said:

sorry, nerd, but I can't open the diagram you linked rhere because it's in your Google Drive account, and it wants a password from me for access.

You will need to use one of the methods to upload images which we lay out here.

Aw, Im really sorry. It shouldn't ask you for a pass, I made it public.

I hope this helps

Thx

[nerd]

Delate

[blademaster2]

Quick note: It looks to me like the pickup selector output is shown going straight to ground on the volume pot, and you will get no signal from it. It needs to go to the other side of the pot.

[nerd]

Feb 11, 2021 10:27:15 GMT -5 blademaster2 said:

Quick note: It looks to me like the pickup selector output is shown going straight to ground on the volume pot, and you will get no signal from it. It needs to go to the other side of the pot.

Yes, that doesn't look right, I will dive in again to double check the connections. But caps and split wiring is solid. Can I borrow a brain to understand PRS logics behind it?

[nerd]

I figured it out I believe. Small on-switches caps are adding capacitance to the pickups in split mode. Something like adding a tone pot value to dark them up a little.

[nerd]

Corrected wiring diagram if there's any interest.

I would be very grateful if someone could help me to mod it for half out of phase bridge pickup with push pull and maybe parallel / series neck. J.Page alike

[newey]

Mar 6, 2021 1:31:35 GMT -5 nerd said:

help me to mod it for half out of phase bridge pickup with push pull

Whenever someone says "half out of phase" ("HOOP", as it often gets abbrviated around here), we have to ask exactly what the person means, because the phrase gets thrown around in different contexts.

Do you mean that you want a P/P switch that puts the two coils of the bridge pickup out of phase with each other, with one coil having its signal attenuated through a cap?

Or, do you mean that you want a P/P switch that puts the bridge pickup out of phase with the neck pickup, with the bridge pickup's signal attenuated through a cap?

and maybe parallel / series neck. J.Page alike

Sorry, more questions. The Jimmy Page mod has a switch that puts the neck and bridge pickups in series. When you say "parallel/series neck", the implication is that you want a switch to put the neck HB in either series or parallel- which is nice to do, IMO, but isn't part of the classic JP scheme.

If you want the second option, putting the neck coils in series/parallel, tha's pretty straightforward. The global series/parallel is a bit more complex because it has to "play nice" with your existing coil split switches. But both are certainly do-able.

[nerd]

Mar 6, 2021 6:56:58 GMT -5 newey said:

Mar 6, 2021 1:31:35 GMT -5 nerd said:

help me to mod it for half out of phase bridge pickup with push pull

Whenever someone says "half out of phase" ("HOOP", as it often gets abbrviated around here), we have to ask exactly what the person means, because the phrase gets thrown around in different contexts.

Do you mean that you want a P/P switch that puts the two coils of the bridge pickup out of phase with each other, with one coil having its signal attenuated through a cap?

Or, do you mean that you want a P/P switch that puts the bridge pickup out of phase with the neck pickup, with the bridge pickup's signal attenuated through a cap?

and maybe parallel / series neck. J.Page alike

Sorry, more questions. The Jimmy Page mod has a switch that puts the neck and bridge pickups in series. When you say "parallel/series neck", the implication is that you want a switch to put the neck HB in either series or parallel- which is nice to do, IMO, but isn't part of the classic JP scheme.

If you want the second option, putting the neck coils in series/parallel, tha's pretty straightforward. The global series/parallel is a bit more complex because it has to "play nice" with your existing coil split switches. But both are certainly do-able.

Thank you for answering and offering your help.

The HOoP I'm after is the one that takes Bridge pickup out of phase with the neck pickup.

I think I will give up on parrarel/series neck as I don't believe I will ever use it. I feel I could use one spare push pull for something but I don't really want to evercomplicate things

[newey]

OK, if you just want the bridge HB "half out of phase" with the neck, this will be a separate module that you will insert after the bridge pickup's coil cut switch. It will be wired in where I have placed the red and blue "X"s on the PRS diagram (I'm not suggesting you cut into those wires, just desolder them at one end and then wire the new phase switch in between. The "X"s are just to show you where it goes.)

Now, since your coil cut switches already have a cap in parallel with the single coil, I don't know how it's going to sound when you have the single coil switch and the HOOP switch both. This HOOP mod put the cap in series with the bridge HB, which will act to cut some bass from the bridge when OOP with the neck, while the coil cut switch puts a cap in parallel with the single coil, which (as you note) cuts the high frequencies a bit.. So, I dunno, maybe you get a middy-ish sound with both switched on?

As for the cap value to use, the suggestion was .01µf, or maybe up to around .022µf. We've had higher values suggested for use in basses.

Here's where to insert it into your existing wiring:



And here's the module, showing only the P/P switch and not the pot- you can wire this to a P/P on either the V or T pot, doesn't matter, whatever's easier for your switching:



Let's let someone double-check this before you start wiring it, I think this is good but I've been wrong before- many times . . .

[nerd]

Thank you very much for giving your time to do this. I'm off tomorrow (now on nights in ambulance service) so when I get up I will wire this in on to my layout and post back to check if I get it alright.

The coil switching still gives me a brain cancer so I like you said, I would love some more input from others.

Thanks again for being such a great community

[nerd]

Here's the layout with HOOP as per your instructions. Did I get it right?




Also, if you don't mind - can you please have a look on this layout? This is as above plus killswitch on the volume pot and independent tone caps with different values for bridge and neck. Will this work as intended?



Thank you 

[newey]

Your HOOP diagram has correctly integrated the HOOP module I drew- Now let's see if I was right in the first place!

As for the tone control, the dual caps will work (again, as I see it), but keep in mind that, when the 3-way switch is set to the middle position, bot caps are in the circuit, in parallel, so you'll have the equivalent of a .037µf cap. This won't matter much when the tone knob is at "10", but if you are playing on, say, the bridge pickup with the tone dialed down to about a "7" or so, and you then flip the switch to the center position, you won't just be adding a pickup, you'll be changing the tone of both by adding the extra cap. I'd find that disconcerting, but YMMV.

The killswitch is fine, but using the switch to disconnect the jack from both ends rather than just shorting the output to ground may be less noisy.

[nerd]

Mar 8, 2021 6:39:07 GMT -5 newey said:

Your HOOP diagram has correctly integrated the HOOP module I drew- Now let's see if I was right in the first place!

As for the tone control, the dual caps will work (again, as I see it), but keep in mind that, when the 3-way switch is set to the middle position, bot caps are in the circuit, in parallel, so you'll have the equivalent of a .037µf cap. This won't matter much when the tone knob is at "10", but if you are playing on, say, the bridge pickup with the tone dialed down to about a "7" or so, and you then flip the switch to the center position, you won't just be adding a pickup, you'll be changing the tone of both by adding the extra cap. I'd find that disconcerting, but YMMV.

The killswitch is fine, but using the switch to disconnect the jack from both ends rather than just shorting the output to ground may be less noisy.

Thank you again.

With the tone cap I think I keep the neck pickup tone cap only. Would make sense this way as I never use the bridge tone pot. Problem solved

Do you think the killswitch will pop when done like this?

I'm hoping JohnH will chime in as I value his opinion as much as yours

[newey]

Mar 8, 2021 6:49:18 GMT -5 nerd said:

I'm hoping JohnH will chime in as I value his opinion as much as yours

You should value his more!

You can certainly wire the tone control so as to affect only the neck, or you could leave it as a master tone but select a cap value you like based on the neck pickup alone; the cap will have no effect until you turn the knob down, so if you never use it with the bridge pickup, no worries.

[nerd]

Mar 8, 2021 8:05:16 GMT -5 newey said:

Mar 8, 2021 6:49:18 GMT -5 nerd said:

I'm hoping JohnH will chime in as I value his opinion as much as yours

You should value his more!

You can certainly wire the tone control so as to affect only the neck, or you could leave it as a master tone but select a cap value you like based on the neck pickup alone; the cap will have no effect until you turn the knob down, so if you never use it with the bridge pickup, no worries.

I do value your all opinions

To be fair tone pot is the least of my worries. I could easy live without one

[nerd]

I know John is really busy with work commitments right now. Until he get some free time I will much appreciate any feedback from any user

Thank you in advance

[JohnH]

I'm just trying to catch up with the base wiring in Post #7

It looks like there is a missing grey diagonal ground wire on the neck switch there, corrected in the last one where hoop is added.

So when you operate the two smaller toggles, it looks like you get a coil cut from each pickup, and each one is the black/white pair but they are out of phase with each other if combined by the main switch, And they are each thickened a little by the small caps? Does that Match what happens? also, what is known about the pickup types?

[nerd]

Mar 12, 2021 15:00:49 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I'm just trying to catch up with the base wiring in Post #7

It looks like there is a missing grey diagonal ground wire on the neck switch there, corrected in the last one where hoop is added.

So when you operate the two smaller toggles, it looks like you get a coil cut from each pickup, and each one is the black/white pair but they are out of phase with each other if combined by the main switch, And they are each thickened a little by the small caps? Does that Match what happens? also, what is known about the pickup types?

Hi John.

Thank you very much for finding time investigating this.

You are correct, the ground jumper was missing. I should mention it but totally escaped my mind. The latest wiring with that link is solid as per layout in my guitar

Both switches are splitting HB in to a SC. The tone when both pickups are selected with in a split mode are similar to Strat in between position 2 and 4. The neck pickup is flipped 180 degree with slug coil facing inner side. I'm not quite sure why PRS did it this way. It seems to be popular theme in PRS 2xHB with double coil split guitars such as 408, 24-08, Paul's Guitar and my 35th Anniversary Custom 24

[nerd]

I'm sorry I had to sent the message without replying in full. Im on duty paramedic and I was sent for a job. Now stood down so:

I believe that the caps on switches does as that. I never had this guitar wired without the caps so I'm not so sure whats the difference without them. The split mode though sounds great, nice and rounded with SC scent and no harshness

Pickups are PRS 85/15 TCI. TCI stands for tuned capacitance & Inductance. How that is archived (if really) I don't know. I had the pickups unscrewed from the body and I couldn't see any trimmers or such

Thanks again for being on it

[JohnH]

Looking at the last diagram:

If you are just going to have the tone for one pickup, then this doesn't apply : But with the two caps shown, there is always a route via the caps from one pickup to the other even if the tone is at max treble. Hence the two pickups bleed into each other through the caps. To have two pickups with dedicated different caps, youd use two tone pots or one dual-ganged double pot.

Could you check the black and white wires? i see they are shown reversed between the two pickups. Usually, if these were two identical pickups, that would lead to a thin out-of-phase tone when combined. But since these are special from PRS, they may have reversed a magnet or something

If you want a kill switch, just use it to short the output to ground, not disconnecting anything, its the cleanest quietest way to do it

You have the hoop circuit drawn. Its a rather uncommon setting but some like it. I've never tried it and I couldn't really describe it. All good if its what you'd like to try? or is it just a simple out of phase setting that you are after?

Any other settings you are seeking?

[nerd]

Mar 13, 2021 15:23:29 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Looking at the last diagram:

If you are just going to have the tone for one pickup, then this doesn't apply : But with the two caps shown, there is always a route via the caps from one pickup to the other even if the tone is at max treble. Hence the two pickups bleed into each other through the caps. To have two pickups with dedicated different caps, youd use two tone pots or one dual-ganged double pot.

Could you check the black and white wires? i see they are shown reversed between the two pickups. Usually, if these were two identical pickups, that would lead to a thin out-of-phase tone when combined. But since these are special from PRS, they may have reversed a magnet or something

If you want a kill switch, just use it to short the output to ground, not disconnecting anything, its the cleanest quietest way to do it

You have the hoop circuit drawn. Its a rather uncommon setting but some like it. I've never tried it and I couldn't really describe it. All good if its what you'd like to try? or is it just a simple out of phase setting that you are after?

Any other settings you are seeking?

Thank you John

I will be keeping the tone control stock. I don't believe I have a massive urge to do any changes here.

Black and white wires on the neck pickup switch are as per my layout as well as all other connections. Previously I said the slug coil on the neck pickup is facing inner side - this is a typo and I should say that the screw coil is facing the inner side. In split mode it appears that both coils are active with slug coils being more sensitive to screwdriver tapping

What would you suggest me to do? Changing neck pickup wiring on the switch to match the bridge pickup and to add HOoP switch as Newey suggested or wire it as its now?

Thank you

[JohnH]

It seems like the base design is quite versatile already, with its nuanced split controls. I think the question is if you want more or different tones, what kind of tonal changes do you seek? Do you want something louder and thicker? or brighter, less bass etc, or some control function that is different?

[nerd]

Mar 15, 2021 14:33:53 GMT -5 JohnH said:

It seems like the base design is quite versatile already, with its nuanced split controls. I think the question is if you want more or different tones, what kind of tonal changes do you seek? Do you want something louder and thicker? or brighter, less bass etc, or some control function that is different?

The only thing I want really for this guitar to do other than it's able to do is out of phase tones. Anything more than that seems to be an overkill. OoP may as well be seen as overkill but I like that on few records and I see it as welcoming tone addition

[JohnH]

Ok that's all cool. Let's sort you out with a basic phase reverse switch on one pickup. Then if you have that, you can also get a heap of variations with it by also using one or both single-coil switches.

The trick will be to make sure that the single-coil switches work properly when oop is engaged.

[nerd]

Great, I'm all ears

[movens]

I have a question,

I have the new 24-08 version and the wiring is the same, same pickups too.

Would anyone know how I would go about wiring a set of Seymour Duncan Sh2n and Sh4 JB to this switching setup?


The Duncan’s have
black north start
White north finish
Red south finish
Green south start
Bare

Where the bridge or the PRS 85/15 has
Red screw start
White slug tap
Green slug finish
Black coil tap
Bare

I’m not sure how to wire that in correlation with the current mini toggles and any advice would be appreciated

[JohnH]

Mar 15, 2021 16:23:23 GMT -5 nerd said:

Great, I'm all ears

Here is a diagram with a phase reverse switch added to the bridge pu. If you replace the red diagonal across the new switch with a cap, then its equivalent to newey's version

[nerd]

Great, thank you.

It will be working with splits and mix of split and full HB just fine?