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Post by stevewf on Oct 23, 2021 2:22:01 GMT -5
...'cause of the PHP. I have a vision of a Strat-bodied guitar, HSH pickguard, populated with a P-90, Humbucker-in-a-single, P-90. It's a PHP. That's a humbucker-sized P-90 a the neck position; a single coil-sized humbucker (dual-rail) in the middle position; a humbucker-sized P-90 in the bridge position. The P-90s are a humbuckng pair; so are the pair of rails in the middle pickup. It's not just a passing fancy. I wanna make this guitar. I have the parts. I absolutely love the P-90, in both neck and bridge positions. But they're prone to noise. So I wanna pair the P-90 coil with a little partner coil to get rid of some hum. I've had good results so far with one guitar (P-90 + Humbucker), and I'm hoping to find more fun. So I ask the Nuthouse for proposals. I dream about having not only a pair of hum-canceling P-90s (neck + bridge [parallel]), but also hum-canceling partner coils in the middle pickup -- both in- and out-of-phase; and in series, in some cases. I'd like to see the controls as one blade and three knobs... and sly slide switches, like the ones found in the TripleShot. I'd cut holes in the pick guard to accommodate one or two tiny slide switches like those. They're 2P2T after all. Or any tiny slider (two?), if it'll fit under that pickguard. Blade can be anything that fits in a standard Strat slot. Any knob can have push/pull 2P2T (though push/push is favored). With those constraints, I'm scratching my head to get at least these essential combos: Essential Combos:1- Bridge single coil alone 2- Bridge + near Middle coil [parallel]; InPhase; Hum-cancel. 3- MiddleS x MiddleN [series]; InPhase; HumCancel 4- Bridge + Neck; InPhase; Hum-cancel 5- Neck x far Middle coil; HalfOutofPhase; HalfHum-cancel 6- Neck single coil alone bonus combos. Any of these included earn bonus points. Redeem bonus points at EternalGratitudeButReally.com 7- All coils in parallel 8- {MiddleS x MiddleN} + {Bridge} + {Neck} 9- Neck + near Middle coil; InPhase; Hum-cancel 10 - Dial-A-HOop using one of the knobs. Meaning sweep from HOoP to OoP, with combo 5 above in mind, and other OoP combos if possible. PMT's HCP pot might be fun to throw at this. Got a bright vision that necessitates the addition of a control (or three)? A microswitch here, a thumbwheel there? My new soldering station awaits! [Edit: thanks, newey, for helping me get this post where it belongs] |
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Post by newey on Oct 23, 2021 6:52:04 GMT -5
stevewf- Sorry, but I had to move your post and retitle it as it wasn't germane where you put it. (and, when I do so, it now looks as if I wrote the original . . .). What you're calling a "PHP" is essentially a SHS Strat scheme, we haven't had many (or maybe, any) of those. But what you want should be possible, as follows: 1) For the 5-way, you will need a Superswitch, or its equivalent, a 4P5T. This would be wired, in "standard" mode, to give N alone/ N + Mid far coil/ Middle HB/ Mid near coil + B/ B alone 2) A Push/push pot wired to turn the N pickup "On" in conjunction with the 5-way selection. This adds the N + B combo, N + Mid HB, and B + Mid SC + neck. 3) Another Push/push pot puts the neck P-90 half OOP. This adds several OOP combos, including the Neck + Middle far coil you want. 4) If you sacrifice one of the 2 tone pots and use a master tone, then the 3rd pot can be the HOOP switch plus the "dial a HOOP". This, I think, is the most straightforward way to get all your essential wants, plus a few of your others. Other options might be to use one of Oak-Grigsby's new(er) 6-position lever switches. These are designed to add the N + B combo to the std Strat 5-way selections; the switch is somewhat limited. I posted a pinout of that switch a while ago. I think that, if the 2nd pole was not used to select tone pots, you could do your middle pickup coil cuts and have all 6 of your essentials, with the addition of a HOOP switch. Having the "all coils in parallel", given that the middle pickup is split in the positions where it is in combo, is tougher, might require using the 3rd pot for another P/P. My suggestion of the neck on switch only gets you the Middle near coil + B + N
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Post by stevewf on Oct 23, 2021 14:24:45 GMT -5
Amazing how fast the Nutz - in this case, newey already - manage to cook up ways to make our dreams come true. Well, at least our guitar wiring dreams. So, thanks very much, newey, for the suggestion. When I get a moment (or twenty), I'll try to go through the process of making a concept/flow diagram, a schematic and a wiring diagram. Hopefully, Nutz will help me find any problems in those, too. I figure the vets here could do that quickly, but I want the mental exercise - wanna improve my brain's wiring for wiring. That shouldn't stop anyone else from posting their attempts, nor from posting concepts that differ from newey's. For amusement, I'll explain here why I first posted this thread in another nutz thread, SD TripleShot™ Switch Logic. I had a LP with TripleShots and SD P-rails, and push-pull pots for serial/parallel between the pickups and phase swap on the Bridge pickup. So I could get a P90 paired with a phase-swapped Rail, which is a hum-bucking pair; but I couldn't get a P90 paired with any Rail InPhase, humbucking. Realizing that I need some distance between an OoP pair of coils, I started thinking about the present SHS configuration; but I still hadn't gotten my head unwrapped from the TripleShots, which need no longer be in the picture after all.
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Post by Yogi B on Oct 24, 2021 8:31:19 GMT -5
I absolutely love the P-90, in both neck and bridge positions. But they're prone to noise. So I wanna pair the P-90 coil with a little partner coil to get rid of some hum. I've had good results so far with one guitar (P-90 + Humbucker), and I'm hoping to find more fun. I have an SHS design ( SHS Strat with three push-push volumes). While it does have some overlap with your stated goals, I particularly want to draw attention to its use of the middle humbucker parallel out of phase with itself (so most of the string signal is cancelled and it mostly picks up just noise) such that can be combined in series with the bridge or neck single coils as a means of hum cancellation without altering the tone too much (and what it will add is mostly treble, which is useful to counteract the extra inductance added by including the middle pickup). With your design having a single coil sized humbucker this technique out to be even more effective at preserving the P-90's inherent tone as the string output of the middle OoP with itself should be even less than that of a full size humbucker. |
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Post by stevewf on Oct 25, 2021 1:50:20 GMT -5
I absolutely love the P-90, in both neck and bridge positions. But they're prone to noise. So I wanna pair the P-90 coil with a little partner coil to get rid of some hum. I've had good results so far with one guitar (P-90 + Humbucker), and I'm hoping to find more fun. I have an SHS design ( SHS Strat with three push-push volumes). While it does have some overlap with your stated goals, I particularly want to draw attention to its use of the middle humbucker parallel out of phase with itself (so most of the string signal is cancelled and it mostly picks up just noise) such that can be combined in series with the bridge or neck single coils as a means of hum cancellation without altering the tone too much (and what it will add is mostly treble, which is useful to counteract the extra inductance added by including the middle pickup). With your design having a single coil sized humbucker this technique out to be even more effective at preserving the P-90's inherent tone as the string output of the middle OoP with itself should be even less than that of a full size humbucker. In your SHS post, you describe a design for a guitar with a couple settings that have HB OoP within itself, put in combo with a neighboring signal coil, and you mention that this is nominally hum-cancelling, which is interesting. If I understand hum-cancelling correctly, then this would mean that the pair of HB coils would balance against the neighboring single coil: two coils versus one. As a corollary, that same single coil paired with only one of the HB coils shouldn't have the same level of hum cancellation ... unless I don't get it (which is, admittedly, a possibility worth visiting Vegas on). The only guess I have is that the physical proximity of the pickups (in terms of magnetizing fields interacting?) could play a role in "strength of humbucking" between pairs of coils. Putting a HB in self OoP, I never considered beyond "won't work", but if there's experience that says otherwise, I'm game for trying. One problem is that I seem to lack time to dedicate to the soldering station; sessions can be weeks apart, so experimenting makes things take lots longer for me. |
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Post by Yogi B on Oct 27, 2021 14:18:27 GMT -5
In your SHS post, you describe a design for a guitar with a couple settings that have HB OoP within itself, put in combo with a neighboring signal coil, and you mention that this is nominally hum-cancelling, which is interesting. If I understand hum-cancelling correctly, then this would mean that the pair of HB coils would balance against the neighboring single coil: two coils versus one. As a corollary, that same single coil paired with only one of the HB coils shouldn't have the same level of hum cancellation ... unless I don't get it (which is, admittedly, a possibility worth visiting Vegas on). The only guess I have is that the physical proximity of the pickups (in terms of magnetizing fields interacting?) could play a role in "strength of humbucking" between pairs of coils. It's an electrical effect more so than magnetic. It's the same effects at work as when combining two pickups in parallel in phase — though there are two pickups selected, the output isn't twice as loud (unlike if they were combined in series). This is because when combined in parallel each pickup doesn't just add its voltage to the output but also loads (and is loaded by) the other pickups it is placed in parallel with. This affects any output and so equally applies to hum, that is: two (or more) parallel connected coils (that share electrical polarity and are otherwise sufficiently similar) produce the same level of hum as would just one of those coils. This means that there exist some combinations with odd numbers of similar coils and yet are still hum-cancelling. It is important to note that, while combining like coils in parallel does little to change the output hum voltage, the combined impedance drops. For example a combination of one 'normal' coil and two RWRP coils where all three are in parallel will not be hum-cancelling — although by themselves the opposing hum from the two RWRP coils would be equal to just one of those coils, their combined inductance is halved. Thus, when combined in parallel with the third 'normal' coil, the pair of RWRP coils will load the 'normal' coil more than just one coil would, causing an imbalance of hum levels. Whereas, placing the third coil in series with the parallel RWRP pair does result in hum-cancelling since combining pickup groups in series simply adds the individual outputs (independent of the differing impedances). JohnH explained the arrangement that is the series/parallel dual (where series and parallel grouping are exchanged) of the above i.e. the two RWRP coils are placed in series and the normal coil is placed in parallel with both, a long while ago on a Geocities site which has since been backed up here: Geocities2 (Cancel that Hum) (about halfway down, under the section "Hum cancelling with three active pickups"). See also: Humbucker used as replacement for the dummy coil and 3 pup coil hum-canceling |
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 27, 2021 19:27:27 GMT -5
This is maybe not exactly what you want, but in my SHS (Squier mini-Strat with a rail in the middle), I wired it with a pair of 5-way rotaries and a few mini goggles. Basically, each rotary is for one of the singles and it’s hum-cancelling counterpart from the humbucker, giving
one coil
both parallel
both series
other coil
neither coil
Then one toggle selects series/parallel between those rotaries, another flips relative polarity between the two sets, and the other is a kill switch because the “neither” positions are open rather than shorted, so that the cable would be hanging in the cosmic wind but also in case I want to get all Morelo with it.
This does give me every meaningful combination of the 4 coils (including the HB OoP with itself as above), and makes sense to me, but it sometimes takes a few moves to get from one setting to another, and of course doesn’t have V or T controls cause the rotaries take their spots.
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Post by stevewf on Oct 30, 2021 20:40:54 GMT -5
In your SHS post, you describe a design for a guitar with a couple settings that have HB OoP within itself, put in combo with a neighboring signal coil, and you mention that this is nominally hum-cancelling, which is interesting. If I understand hum-cancelling correctly, then this would mean that the pair of HB coils would balance against the neighboring single coil: two coils versus one. As a corollary, that same single coil paired with only one of the HB coils shouldn't have the same level of hum cancellation ... unless I don't get it (which is, admittedly, a possibility worth visiting Vegas on). The only guess I have is that the physical proximity of the pickups (in terms of magnetizing fields interacting?) could play a role in "strength of humbucking" between pairs of coils. It's an electrical effect more so than magnetic. It's the same effects at work as when combining two pickups in parallel in phase — though there are two pickups selected, the output isn't twice as loud (unlike if they were combined in series). This is because when combined in parallel each pickup doesn't just add its voltage to the output but also loads (and is loaded by) the other pickups it is placed in parallel with. This affects any output and so equally applies to hum, that is: two (or more) parallel connected coils (that share electrical polarity and are otherwise sufficiently similar) produce the same level of hum as would just one of those coils. This means that there exist some combinations with odd numbers of similar coils and yet are still hum-cancelling. It is important to note that, while combining like coils in parallel does little to change the output hum voltage, the combined impedance drops. For example a combination of one 'normal' coil and two RWRP coils where all three are in parallel will not be hum-cancelling — although by themselves the opposing hum from the two RWRP coils would be equal to just one of those coils, their combined inductance is halved. Thus, when combined in parallel with the third 'normal' coil, the pair of RWRP coils will load the 'normal' coil more than just one coil would, causing an imbalance of hum levels. Whereas, placing the third coil in series with the parallel RWRP pair does result in hum-cancelling since combining pickup groups in series simply adds the individual outputs (independent of the differing impedances). JohnH explained the arrangement that is the series/parallel dual (where series and parallel grouping are exchanged) of the above i.e. the two RWRP coils are placed in series and the normal coil is placed in parallel with both, a long while ago on a Geocities site which has since been backed up here: Geocities2 (Cancel that Hum) (about halfway down, under the section "Hum cancelling with three active pickups"). See also: Humbucker used as replacement for the dummy coil and 3 pup coil hum-cancelingWow again. So now I'm soaking my head in hum-cancellation threads. Delicious, thanks nutzhouse! |
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Post by stevewf on Oct 30, 2021 20:52:25 GMT -5
This is maybe not exactly what you want, but in my SHS (Squier mini-Strat with a rail in the middle), I wired it with a pair of 5-way rotaries and a few mini goggles. Basically, each rotary is for one of the singles and it’s hum-cancelling counterpart from the humbucker, giving one coil both parallel both series other coil neither coil Then one toggle selects series/parallel between those rotaries, another flips relative polarity between the two sets, and the other is a kill switch because the “neither” positions are open rather than shorted, so that the cable would be hanging in the cosmic wind but also in case I want to get all Morelo with it. This does give me every meaningful combination of the 4 coils (including the HB OoP with itself as above), and makes sense to me, but it sometimes takes a few moves to get from one setting to another, and of course doesn’t have V or T controls cause the rotaries take their spots. Ever more, ever more, to get my now well-stretched head wrapped around: now, not only what hum-canceling combos I wanna try for, but also what controls do I wanna use in what (physical) locations? Do I want more holes in the pickguard? Do I need a Tone pot? Do I want "neither" positions? As I get more and more familiar with the contents of this Guitarnuts2 forum, I'm experiencing a phenomenon that's probably common to rookies in any place: As the number of answers to my questions rises, the number of new questions arises geometrically. At least the new questions are more sophisticated (one hopes). In the end, I'm positive that my guitars will sound better, so thanks, all! -Steve |
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Post by stevewf on Nov 23, 2021 12:59:00 GMT -5
stevewf- What you're calling a "PHP" is essentially a SHS Strat scheme, we haven't had many (or maybe, any) of those. For those who be hunting for SHS designs in the NutzHouse, I've managed to find these so far: |
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