Relatively Simple HSH Wiring?

[cem]

Hello everyone.

I was looking for a wiring diagram that i was sure i would be able to find easily but couldn't.

I need an HSH wiring with one master volume and two tones. The middle pickup won't be connected to a tone pot. So the neck and the bridge will have their individual tone pots.

5th position: Neck
4th position: Neck and middle in parallel (Neck is not split)
3rd position: Neck and bridge in parallel (Neck and bridge are not split)
2nd position: Middle and bridge in parallel (Bridge is not split)
1st position: Bridge

If anyone can help me with this diagram it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[reTrEaD]

Nov 3, 2021 7:02:10 GMT -5 cem said:

Hello everyone.

I was looking for a wiring diagram that i was sure i would be able to find easily but couldn't.

I need an HSH wiring with one master volume and two tones. The middle pickup won't be connected to a tone pot. So the neck and the bridge will have their individual tone pots.

5th position: Neck
4th position: Neck and middle in parallel (Neck is not split)
3rd position: Neck and bridge in parallel (Neck and bridge are not split)
2nd position: Middle and bridge in parallel (Bridge is not split)
1st position: Bridge

If anyone can help me with this diagram it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

I don't recall seeing such a diagram but if there is one, perhaps someone else might be able to find it. You won't be able to accomplish this with a standard 5-way.

You'll need one of the following:
A Superswitch (4P5T)
A 'Half-Superswitch' (2P5T)
A Megaswitch-M (4P5T)

The half-superswitch is more expensive than a full superswitch so unless this is going into a guitar that has a narrow control cavity like a Telecaster, you shouldn't bother with it. Also, you won't be able to support multiple tone control switching with it.

Which brings up another question ... Will you have a one or two tone controls. If two, which positions will have which tone control enabled?

[cem]

I have a full superswitch and this is going in to a strat so i have plenty of space available.

Neck and bridge pickups will have their individual tone controls and i would like to be able to use both of them when the 3rd position is selected.

So to be clearer:


5th position: Neck--- Neck tone is used
4th position: Neck and middle in parallel (Neck is not split) --- Neck tone is used, middle pickup is not connected to the tone pot
3rd position: Neck and bridge in parallel (Neck and bridge are not split) --- Both neck and bridge tone pots are used
2nd position: Middle and bridge in parallel (Bridge is not split) --- Bridge tone pot is used, middle pickup is not connected to the tone pot
1st position: Bridge--- Bridge tone is used

And all pickups are connected to a master volume pot.

This feels like a relatively complicated wiring the more i talk about it

[newey]

With a Superswitch, there's usually more than one way to "skin the cat", and there may well be other ways than this. But I was bored on my lunch hour so I came up with this (which should work but probably needs a second look to be sure.) I have simplified this down by not showing the V pot or jack, nor do I show the pickup grounds/shields/etc, all of which of course need to be grounded in some fashion. Also the tone pots are not shown as grounded, but all that is trivial- this is the guts of what you need.

[Deleted]

signal will still travel back down to the tone Pot from the Middle Pickup!

(had to change the word Sign to Signal!)

[newey]

Sign will still travel back down to the tone Pot from the Middle Pickup!

Hmm. Not sure I see a way around that, if I wire the tone pots to the unused pole of the Superswitch they will still be in circuit with the middle pup at 2 and 4, right?

[ashcatlt]

There's nothing to be done on that T pot thing. Any pickup selected will be affected by any tone pot selected in any given position because that's just how that works. We have been knowing this.

Well, ok actually we could get some independence of the T pots by adding some isolating resistors into the equation, but that's going to have much worse effects on tone than just realizing that every Tone pot on a parallel-wired guitar is actually Master Tone in a position where it is active at all.

[Yogi B]

Nov 3, 2021 21:41:04 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Well, ok actually we could get some independence of the T pots by adding some isolating resistors into the equation, but that's going to have much worse effects on tone than just realizing that every Tone pot on a parallel-wired guitar is actually Master Tone in a position where it is active at all.

On a similar theme, the only other option would be to have a tone control that worked by adding series impedance to one of the pickups in the parallel group. That is: have a pot bypassing an ('isolating') inductor — the opposite of a traditional bass cut where a pot bypasses a series cap. However that doesn't really solve anything, first like with that style of bass cut, the cutoff frequency is highly dependent upon the following load. Secondly, when just one pickup is selected and assuming normal loading, in order to get something comparable to a normal tone control you'd require a larger inductance than to which we typically have access (tens of Henrys). And third, still it doesn't properly solve the parallel pickups problem: yes, you'd only reduce treble from the pickup with which the inductor was in series, but you'd also be preventing that pickup from loading the other pickup. The result being that you'd have more of a change in timbre than in overall tonality — it'd act more like a blend control constrained to only operate on treble frequencies.

[sumgai]

Nov 3, 2021 7:02:10 GMT -5 cem said:

I need an HSH wiring with one master volume and two tones. The middle pickup won't be connected to a tone pot. So the neck and the bridge will have their individual tone pots.

5th position: Neck
4th position: Neck and middle in parallel (Neck is not split)
3rd position: Neck and bridge in parallel (Neck and bridge are not split)
2nd position: Middle and bridge in parallel (Bridge is not split)
1st position: Bridge

I've had this in my repertoire for some time, except the earlier version had only one Master Tone control.  A few clicks of the mouse in AutoCAD, and here ya go:


Simply regard the displayed single coil pups as your un-split humbuckers, and it should work per your specifications.

[cem]

Thanks guys but i have some questions. 

As far as i can understand the 4th and 2nd positions can't operate the way i want and there is no way to make the middle pickup work independently of the tone pot. Is this correct?

newey and sumgai came up with their versions of diagrams. Which one should i be using? Are they exactly the same?

And there is also a problem, i can't see sumgai's diagram. Can everyone else see his?

[newey]

cem-

Yes I can see sg's diagram. My diagram uses a 4-pole Superswitch, sg's is using a half-Superswitch. You said you had a Superswitch, so that's the way I drew it, but as RT said above, the half-SS is enough as well.

As far as i can understand the 4th and 2nd positions can't operate the way i want and there is no way to make the middle pickup work independently of the tone pot. Is this correct?

Yes, ashcatlt is right about that, I wasn't thinking clearly. When in positions 2 or 4, turning down the tone pot will affect both pickups.

[sumgai]

Nov 4, 2021 7:57:51 GMT -5 cem said:

Thanks guys but i have some questions. 

As far as i can understand the 4th and 2nd positions can't operate the way i want and there is no way to make the middle pickup work independently of the tone pot. Is this correct?

newey and sumgai came up with their versions of diagrams. Which one should i be using? Are they exactly the same?

And there is also a problem, i can't see sumgai's diagram. Can everyone else see his?

In reverse order:

I used the "Postimage Upload" function when I replied. That goes to a central hosting provider that this forum uses, and if you can see newey's image, then you should be able to see mine. Beyond that, I have no answer as to why you're having an issue....

newey's diagram is functionally the same as mine, except that his requires a full Superswitch (4 individual switches, with one physical actuator). Mine needs only a so-called "half Superswitch", it has only two individual switches on one actuator. (Sometimes we call them "decks", other websites might use different names. You get the idea, I'm sure.)

You're correct in that for your particular setup, there's no way to isolate the Middle pup from the Tone control. Sorry, but that's a limitation (one of the very few!) on how circuits can be customized. If that still doesn't make sense for you, just ask for more details.

From your initial post:

5th position: Neck
4th position: Neck and middle in parallel (Neck is not split)
3rd position: Neck and bridge in parallel (Neck and bridge are not split)
2nd position: Middle and bridge in parallel (Bridge is not split)
1st position: Bridge

Using newey's diagram (because you can see it), you'll find that the Mid pup is connected, on the upper-right deck, to Positions 2 & 4. Using the lower left deck, you can see that the Bridge is also connected to the output in 2, and ditto for upper left deck connecting the Neck in 4.

HTH



sumgai

[sumgai]

Nov 3, 2021 7:02:10 GMT -5 cem said:

The middle pickup won't be connected to a tone pot.

Let's go here.

First, the obvious question - whyzzat? Doesn't matter, but curious minds want to know.

The short answer (slightly longer than "can't be done") is that when two pickups are in parallel, then anything else in parallel with one of them is, by definition, also in parallel with the other pup. Our bog-standard Tone control is subject to that criterion.

So, the only way to imitate a separation of the two is to install a pair of resistors, one per pup. The junction of the two resistors then goes on to wherever the combination is destined. (Keep in mind that a switch is also in play during this lash-up.)

Obviously no one wants to reduce the signal strength coming out of their guitar, so now we have to consider installing an active amplification circuit. That isn't difficult, but it does add parts, and a battery that will need recharging or replacement, as the user chooses. This will easily overcome the reduction caused by the resistors, and will (or at least it should) give you what you wanted, per your original post.

HTH



sumgai

[Deleted]

To me the Tone Controls area bit pointless

Two will Fight

On the Strats they Share the Capacitor 47nF so the Pot Value changes form say 250K to 125K down, Custom in Middle/Neck
Les Paul tends to have 500K with 22nF then in to a Volume before a selection Switch, but because of the Volume the signal cant travel back down the other Tone Control

[cem]

I think i will be happy with newey's diagram.

The only reason i wanted the middle pickup like that was because the 4th position sounded slightly weaker than how i would like it to be. It would have made a very slight difference anyway.

Thanks again for your quick and helpful replies:)

[sumgai]

Nov 4, 2021 14:27:39 GMT -5 cem said:

The only reason i wanted the middle pickup like that was because the 4th position sounded slightly weaker than how i would like it to be.

Sometimes, the simplest things matter. Have you tried adjusting the height of each pickup, aiming for the best tonal balance? Might solve your problem right there, who knows....

[cem]

Sometimes, the simplest things matter. Have you tried adjusting the height of each pickup, aiming for the best tonal balance? Might solve your problem right there, who knows....

That does solve the problem but this time the middle pickup gets in the way of my pick. But it isn't that big of a deal, the guitar already has a tonal balance that i can work with since i'm not splitting anything and the middle pickup is a higher output bareknuckles singlecoil bridge. I'm glad i've made that decision about the pickup

[Deleted]

And if you want to use a S-Type 5 way switch, the Cheap ones
Take off the PCB and cut at top and the first ones at the top of the middles on both sides


and when looking at this it goes from Top LEFT Going Down and Bottom RIGHT Going Up
so 1) B 2) B+M 3)B+N 4) N+M 5) M (and if you want it the other way around ever switch N and B or flip the switch 180'

[ashcatlt]

Nov 4, 2021 12:56:54 GMT -5 @angellahash said:

...but because of the Volume the signal cant travel back down the other Tone Control

Does sort of depend on how those controls are wired (modern/50s), but either way also depends on the setting of said V pot. The series part of the V pot (when not at 10) can help isolate the one pickup from the other T pot the same as the resistors that sumgai and I were babbling about. That, though, does illustrate the problem with that approach.

In fact, that series resistance does a few things:
Reduces overall output, leading to worse signal/noise ratio.
Reduces the cutoff frequency of the LPF formed by the cable capacitance.
Isolates the pickups from each other’s inductance. TBH it’s a bit too early in the day for me to work out how that affects tone, but I feel like it should.

So basically, installing those resistors is likely to have a bigger impact on tone than you are actually trying to achieve, and quite possibly in the wrong direction.

[cem]

Hello everyone.

Im going to have to resurrect this thread. I couldn't find the time to try newey's diagram but i have thought alot about the wiring.

I think i like all 3 pickups in parallel more than i like N and B in parallel on this guitar. The JB makes it a bit too harsh to my liking. All 3 together on the other hand, sounds like a different version of both 2nd and 4th positions. It is similar but has a unique character that i like. So the 3rd position should be all 3 in parallel.

Also, I don't know why any of us didn't consider making the 2nd and 4th positions completely no load. By that i mean any pickups selected would not be connected to a tone pot, rather than just the middle. If this is possible, this will be the perfect wiring for me for this guitar.


5th position: Neck--- Neck tone is used

4th position: Neck and middle in parallel (Neck is not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
3rd position: All 3 pickups in parallel (Neck and bridge are not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.

2nd position: Middle and bridge in parallel (Bridge is not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.

1st position: Bridge--- Bridge tone is used.

Someone please tell me this is possible

[newey]

Nov 19, 2021 17:10:28 GMT -5 cem said:

Someone please tell me this is possible

With a Superswitch it is possible. That's why they"re "Super"

[newey]

[cem]

newey you are awesome as usual

Can anyone proofread this?

[Deleted]

1) Bridge + Tone A
2) Bridge + Middle
3) Bridge + Middle + Neck
4) Neck + Middle
5) Neck + Tone B


IN long terms
5th position: Neck--- Neck tone is used
4th position: Neck and middle in parallel (Neck is not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
3rd position: All 3 pickups in parallel (Neck and bridge are not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
2nd position: Middle and bridge in parallel (Bridge is not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
1st position: Bridge--- Bridge tone is used.

[cem]

Nov 20, 2021 16:50:56 GMT -5 @angellahash said:

1) Bridge + Tone A
2) Bridge + Middle
3) Bridge + Middle + Neck
4) Neck + Middle
5) Neck + Tone B


IN long terms
5th position: Neck--- Neck tone is used
4th position: Neck and middle in parallel (Neck is not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
3rd position: All 3 pickups in parallel (Neck and bridge are not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
2nd position: Middle and bridge in parallel (Bridge is not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
1st position: Bridge--- Bridge tone is used.

 Did i use the word proofread wrong? I just wanted someone else to check newey's diagram to see if there are any errors.

[Deleted]

Nov 21, 2021 10:30:43 GMT -5 cem said:

Nov 20, 2021 16:50:56 GMT -5 @angellahash said:

1) Bridge + Tone A
2) Bridge + Middle
3) Bridge + Middle + Neck
4) Neck + Middle
5) Neck + Tone B


IN long terms
5th position: Neck--- Neck tone is used
4th position: Neck and middle in parallel (Neck is not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
3rd position: All 3 pickups in parallel (Neck and bridge are not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
2nd position: Middle and bridge in parallel (Bridge is not split) --- None of the pickups are connected to a tone pot.
1st position: Bridge--- Bridge tone is used.

 Did i use the word proofread wrong? I just wanted someone else to check newey's diagram to see if there are any errors.

your term was CLEAR and to the POINT
i just wrote how i read the Diagram and then matched it what you requested as Proof Reading
Maybe it a MATHS thing

[cem]

Thanks everyone. Can't wait to try this diagram

[cem]

Hey guys:)

I still couldn't try the diagram because my guitar tech said that when he wired the guitar this way the neck pickup didn't work. Since this diagram was proofread i am sure it wasn't the diagram thats causing the problem. Maybe my superswitch is not working properly?

What do you guys think?

[jhng]

It is possible that the lugs on the superswitch for poles c and d run in the opposite direction to Newey's diagram. If you look, the diagram has A and B running 1/2/3/4/5 from left to right and C and D running 5/4/3/2/1. However, on some superswitches at least all the lugs run in the same direction. So C and D would run 1/2/3/4/5 left to right, just like A and B.

I suggest asking your guitar tech to test whether the Neck pickup is coming on in the Bridge and Bridge + Middle positions, and whether the Neck + Middle position is actually only the Middle. If so, then that is what has happened. It needs to be connected to the three lugs at the other end instead.

[Deleted]

The best thing to do is Continuity test (Beep Beep Test as Penny Wise would call it)

So you put one end on the Common
and the other end should touch each of the 3 throw and it should beep where it works and not beep where it shouldnt connect up.