Challenge: Coil select, Phase swap, Series

[stevewf]

Well, I don't think it's possible, but I've seen what I thought was impossible here, so what the heck? I'll ask.

I'm gonna build a SHS one day. That is, in a super Strat body, a P-90 in the neck, a mini-rail humbucker in the middle, and a P-90 in the bridge. The two P-90s are an in-phase, hum-cancelling pair. The rail is Strat single coil-sized. It's positioned so that the coil nearest the bridge is an in-phase hum-canceler with the bridge P-90, and the coil nearest the neck is an in-phase hum-canceler with the neck P-90. Let's give it a 5-way switch, which can be super-mega-infinity if necessary, as long as I don't have to mod it (I got no extra time these days). The positions:
1: Bridge
2: Bridge and bridge-ward coil of the rail (parallel)
3: Bridge and Neck (parallel)
4: Neck and neck-ward coil of the rail (parallel)
5: Neck

In my mind, all the above is achievable without much head scratching.

Here's the magic switch I want: It'll affect positions 2 & 4. It will:

• select the other rail coil
• put the active coils in series instead of parallel
• swap one of the coils' phase (and add a cap to ground to do HOoP on the rail coil, but I think that's trivial)

I'd kinda like to avoid adding a switch other than one on a pot. I'd really really like to avoid using a Fender S-1, because I wanna use non-stock-looking knobs.
When I throw my brain against the wall, a single DPDT answer doesn't seem to stick. Anyone else?

Looks like a mini toggle will be necessary. What's the minimum number of poles I need, keeping it on a single switch?

[jhng]

Here's version that almost does it (I think). The snag is that the partial bypass cap in the SHOOP settings bypasses the Neck and Bridge, respectively, rather than the active coil of the Middle. However, you do still get the basic switching functionality from parallel in phase to series out of phase in positions 2 and 4, with the coil swap on the Middle pickup so that all combos remain hum-cancelling.







P.S. I've omitted the tone control. This would either be a master tone (easy) or separate tones for Bridge and Neck (a bit more fiddly).

[stevewf]

Amazing! It's gonna take me a little bit of time just to figure out how the heck you did that. You've just boosted this project up the priority list, after it's been languishing for months! Ha!

[Deleted]

I'm not understanding the SW2
1) Neck -> no grounds
2) (N+C)xMS
3) Neck+Bridge -> no grounds
4) (B+C)xMN
5) Bridge -> no grounds
SW2b feels wrong
What is the capacitor for

[newey]

Feb 24, 2022 2:58:16 GMT -5 @angellahash said:

SW2b feels wrong

SW2b is switching all pickup grounds between going straight to ground or to pole C of the 5-way. Pole C either grounds a pickup (positions 1,3,5) or elevates the ground for the series connections at 2 and 4. The cap is for the "half out of phase" thing.

[Deleted]

(Dam it, I just noticed got a and b mix up on SW2)
So how does SW2 effect position 1,3,&5
That was my point
Because if you look deep I to my eyes. Sorry in to the switch you see SW2b links up to the 5way switch which in position 1,3&5 goes too ...... Ground!!

And please don't get upset with me Newey

[jhng]

SW2 doesn’t affect positions 1, 3 & 5. The challenge is a mod that only affects positions 2 and 4 only.

Switching from parallel in phase to series out of phase is generally one of the easier things to do because you don’t need to actually change the configuration/connections between the pickups. You just need to move around the hots/grounds from the jack/switches (or the In/out path to put it another way).

[Deleted]

so what is the POINT of the 3 Grounds on SW1c
SW2b has such a effect on Position 1,3&5 that they cant be grounded when changed over, but there is a very nice 1P5T that grounds it and the series

[sumgai]

ang,


Let's go back and look at the original post/request:

Feb 22, 2022 23:44:54 GMT -5 stevewf said:

Here's the magic switch I want: It'll affect positions 2 & 4. It will:

• select the other rail coil
• put the active coils in series instead of parallel
• swap one of the coils' phase (and add a cap to ground to do HOoP on the rail coil,

stevewf notes that the 5-way pickup selector positions 1, 3 and 5 should remain the same regardless of the position of SW2. IOW, he wants only two new combinations, for a total of seven possibilities. This means that SW2 must NOT change positions 1, 3 and 5, I'm sure you'll agree.  So SW1c & d are not meant to actually duplicate anything, they simply remain the same no matter which position of SW2 is selected. Now we'll look more closely at SW2.

Think of a standard DPDT phase reversal switch. It's often laid out with an "X" pattern, yes? So trace the signal from ground to output in SW1 position 2 and SW2 set to series. See how the signal path goes from ground, through SW1c to the 'hot' of the proper Mid coil, through that coil, out the "not hot" to the 'not hot' of Neck , through Neck, and thence onward to the jack?. What you just traced was the phase-reversal of a standard DPDT switch, with SW1c placed in the middle of the signal path. That additional switching deck does two things:

a) makes the DPDT series/parallel switch (SW2b) sensitive to which pickup combos are selected (positions 2 and 4 only);
b) reverses the phase of the selected combo;
and in concert with SW2a, it:
c) inserts a capacitor across the Mid pup's leads for a HOOP sound.

In SW1c, and with SW2 set to parallel, we also find that the appropriate Mid coil is paired with Bridge or Neck, as chosen.

I'd hazard a guess that this is a novel use case. It uses the fewest components necessary to achieve the requester's goals.  That's the very essence of what we call 'elegant design'.  In short, I'm gonna issue a Like to jhng for this one.

HTH



sumgai

[Deleted]

BUT they DONT REMAIN the SAME!!


so 1,3 & 5 go from N, N+B & B to Nothing, Nothing and Nothing!
I cant draw in Crayons for people!!

SW2a has Nothing to DO with things when it comes to Positions 1,3&5
SW2b is the MASTER GROUND control that ONLY lets 2&4 Connect to Ground
1,3&5 just HOOKS back up to GROUND
SO there for there is NO EXIT / NO GROUDN for 1,3&5 to go to !!

3rd Post saying the SAME thing with
SHOW ME the PATH of POSTION 1 in BOTH states as i have ABOVE

[sumgai]

Ah, but I (once again) misspoke.

To review:

Feb 22, 2022 23:44:54 GMT -5 stevewf said:

... and add a cap to ground to do HOoP on the rail coil,

The diagram supplied by jhng has the cap going to the output jack, partially bypassing the Neck or Bridge pup, not the chosen Mid coil to ground.  The fix won't be easy, let alone trivial, but I'm thinking that Hastings can find a way out of this dilemma, given the chance to do so...... (I don't see it yet, but I'm cogitating on it in the back of my mind. Meantime, it's off to work I go.)




sumgai

[Deleted]

Here's the magic switch I want: It'll affect positions 2 & 4. It will:

1) Neck
2) Neck + Middle N
3) Neck + Bridge
4) Bridge + Middle S
5) Bridge

------

1) No Output
2) Neck x Middle N
3) No Output
4) Bridge x Middle S
5) No Output

So in short yes you have affect Position 2&4 but also Effected 1,3&5 .. well done

[sumgai]

jhng,


Gawd but I'm sad that I don't see these things... seems like the older I get, the more I see things I want to see, not how things really are.

ang is 100% correct, you've got SW2b wired the wrong-way-around. The nominal ground for the pickups should go to the common terminal of the switch, not one of the two choices.

---

ang,


Sorry, I thought you were going on about the series position of SW2. I see your problem now, and I can only hope that jhng can salvage the diagram for stevewf.





sumgai

[Deleted]

Feb 24, 2022 15:28:41 GMT -5 newey said:

Feb 24, 2022 14:43:30 GMT -5 @angellahash said:

3rd Post saying the SAME thing with
SHOW ME the PATH of POSTION 1 in BOTH states as i have ABOVE

Position 1 is designated as neck pickup only. The negative connection of the neck pickup goes to ground in both positions of SW2-b, so it remains grounded in both positions of that switch at position 1.

The + side of the neck pickup connects to output at position 1 via lug 1 of SW1-a. The position of SW2-a makes no difference at position 1; in one position, it connects to SW1-d, where lug 1 is disconnected, in the other position it connects the cap at positions 2 and 4, so it does not affect the neck pickup at position 1.

I tried my best to COLOUR in the PATH for you !!! LOOK AT SW2b it goes from GROUNDING to then go on to SW1c which only Ground position 2&4
LOOK on how the Switch is Laid out than GUESSING!

[jhng]

OMG! Ang is quite right. I've messed up. Apologies to all for the confusion and thank you to Ang for persisting! It's actually that the connection from 1, 3 and 5 of SW1:c went to the wrong place. Here is a fixed(?) diagram for Steve.

[sumgai]

jhng,


I thought that this could be easily fixed, though you did do it slightly differently than what I had suggested. Doesn't matter, it now works. But have you had any thoughts on the HOOP problem?

---

cem,

It would seem that the latest diagram will work as intended. I don't know if Hastings has any idea about how to fix the problem with the HOOP cap's placement, but I'm coming up short.  Sorry.

HTH





sumgai

[stevewf]

I continue to be amazed. You guys do this faster than I can keep up. It looks like there's a workable solution.

About the placement of the HOoP cap: I only chose that because I had an otherwise uninformed wish to retain as much of the P-90's input in the signal, at the expense of some of its anti-partner rail coil's signal; I thought that positioning the cap as in my original request would best do that. I'm flexible here, as the rest of the project now sounds makeable.

This might have seemed like a purely academic request in the first place, but I've been meaning to get to this one, albeit for quite a while. By this point I feel I owe a photo.

(ignore the S-1 switch)
In addition to the guts shown above, the neck and body are ready, though currently still in their original state from Monoprice. Photo shows the chosen final pickguard, but there's a Glarry Strat for torture/experimenting, whose pickguard has been chopped in half to facilitate gutting while leaving the pickups in place. In case experimentation becomes prolonged, there's a hum-fighting faraday box waiting in the garage. It's not all for naught, really!

Now it looks like a wiring diagram would be the next step - I solder better from those than from schematics. But I see that there are some control choices that remain. Master Volume (as seen in the schematic), two tones: one for Neck, one for Bridge. Or, if I get all my wishes, then one tone would control the neck (or neck plus its rail partner) and the other tone likewise toward the bridge (pair). Right now I'm off to collect jhng's latest from the printer, so I can finally really look, and see if I can figure out how to add those tone controls. Others are welcome to try, given these new scope-creep criteria   I've learned not to trust "trivial" appearances by now!

Thanks all!

[jhng]

Regarding the HOOP stuff, I have never done half out of phase. However, I would have thought it is much less useful with a series configuration than a parallel one. You may find it better to leave it out all together.

A cap allows through higher frequencies. So when two out of phase pickups are in parallel and one of those goes through a cap, what happens is that you get one coil for the lower frequencies and both coils for the higher frequencies. So the out of phase effect impacts on the higher frequencies, which contribute to the character of the sound, while leaving the lower frequencies unaffected. This is useful since out of phase lower frequencies significantly reduces the 'body' of the sound.

By contrast, when two pickups are in series, if you bypass one of those pickups with a cap you get the reverse effect. You have the out of phase effect on the lower frequencies, where the signal passes through both pups, but the upper frequencies are only from one coil and remain unaffected. I haven't tried this but my expectation is that is that you would get single coil highs with a weakened bottom end due to the phase cancellation on the lows. Seems much less useful to me.

[jhng]

Incidentally, thinking about variations of this design, it would be very easy to extend it so that the switch also changes position 3 from N+B to ~NxB out of phase. A lot of people find that the NxB OOP configuration is one of the more useful out of phase sounds on a Strat.

Regarding tone controls, it would be very easy to have one tone control in position 1 and the other one in position 5 by attaching them to the unused lugs on SW1:a and SW1:b. However, that would leave no tone control on 2. 3 and 4.

Alternatively you wire the tone controls across the Neck and Bridge pickups, respectively. Then the relevant tone control will take effect whenever that pickup is engaged in a parallel combo. In the series OOP combos it would function as a partial bypass only on Neck or Bridge pickup respectively.

[stevewf]

Feb 25, 2022 4:36:24 GMT -5 jhng said:

Regarding the HOOP stuff, I have never done half out of phase. However, I would have thought it is much less useful with a series configuration than a parallel one. You may find it better to leave it out all together.

A cap allows through higher frequencies. So when two out of phase pickups are in parallel and one of those goes through a cap, what happens is that you get one coil for the lower frequencies and both coils for the higher frequencies. So the out of phase effect impacts on the higher frequencies, which contribute to the character of the sound, while leaving the lower frequencies unaffected. This is useful since out of phase lower frequencies significantly reduces the 'body' of the sound.

By contrast, when two pickups are in series, if you bypass one of those pickups with a cap you get the reverse effect. You have the out of phase effect on the lower frequencies, where the signal passes through both pups, but the upper frequencies are only from one coil and remain unaffected. I haven't tried this but my expectation is that is that you would get single coil highs with a weakened bottom end due to the phase cancellation on the lows. Seems much less useful to me.

Yes, jhng, while going over the schematic you generously provided, I'm seeing that HOoP in series is a different breed than in parallel; it looks more complicated, since, along with the points you've raised, the cap can be directly involved with both of the coils (partly shorting the "first" coil while providing a portion of ground for the "second"). I had to make three drawings of that microcosm before I could see this  .

It's apparent that I've asked for features that I haven't used before. This might have contributed unnecessary complication to the design. OoPs. So even more thanks is due. Meanwhile, that's why I have that faraday box waiting - I foresee some time with the headphones, breadboard and jumpers. The box helps me fiddle while Rome hums.

I really don't want to waste the time of people here who are so helpful by asking for designs that won't be used... but I'm afraid that another design might end up being adopted, and, worse, that I might need help again with making it. I kind of cornered myself, though, by the title of the thread. Might have been better to make a thread for this particular guitar, and such a thread might end up happening yet.

[stevewf]

Feb 25, 2022 8:07:37 GMT -5 jhng said:

Incidentally, thinking about variations of this design, it would be very easy to extend it so that the switch also changes position 3 from N+B to ~NxB out of phase. A lot of people find that the NxB OOP configuration is one of the more useful out of phase sounds on a Strat.

I've tried an Out-of-Phase pair of P-90s that were hum-cancelling while in phase... maybe my hum-o-phobia is exaggerated, but that pair swapped to OoP can be a noisy configuration, and my guitar cave happens to be a place bombarded with interference  . The P-90s I've got, being only ring-shielded and not fully covered, tend to grab interference.

Regarding tone controls, it would be very easy to have one tone control in position 1 and the other one in position 5 by attaching them to the unused lugs on SW1:a and SW1:b. However, that would leave no tone control on 2. 3 and 4.

Alternatively you wire the tone controls across the Neck and Bridge pickups, respectively. Then the relevant tone control will take effect whenever that pickup is engaged in a parallel combo. In the series OOP combos it would function as a partial bypass only on Neck or Bridge pickup respectively.

To cure this, it'd be tempting to dump the whole OoP thing here, but I've also had some good experience with a [P-90] OoP with a [split HB coil] (in parallel). So then I'd better go listen more carefully to that same guitar with those coils OoP in series (that poor LP is like a lab-on-a strap, with all its controls). That guitar, though, doesn't offer the "Half" aspect of HOoP, though I may be able to squeeze a pair of alligator clips into the cavity to get there and experiment more.

Then, it's tempting to drop the Series part instead. Hmpf. That's a major part of the original challenge.

I think this challenge has been met well. The only snag was the aforementioned placement of the cap in relation to the coils. The challenger didn't even fully realize the nature of the request, neglecting the tone controls and not knowing what SHOop is. Since I've finally forced myself to reckon with that, I think I'd better start asking for help in that different thread! First, though, back to the listen lab.

[jhng]

Glad the input was helpful. It was an interesting challenge and no need to apologise for the changing scope. As soon as I hear about a switching configuration that doesn't initially seem possibly, I find it very hard to let it go until I've found a solution.

When you are doing your listening, it's worth asking yourself what sort of tonal range you are looking for from the guitar. Are you looking to add options for fat, quack, twang, sparkle, squawk..? I'm sure there are other tonal 'food groups' as well. Then work out what kind additional pickup combos and tone control arrangements will give you that and find a switching schema to do it all.

I'm very happy to think any other schemes you are considering, particularly if they appear to be impossible. Those are the most satisfying ones to design.

[newey]

Feb 25, 2022 11:59:48 GMT -5 jhng said:

I'm very happy to think any other schemes you are considering, particularly if they appear to be impossible. Those are the most satisfying ones to design.

That's the Nutzhouse™ attitude!

[stevewf]

Feb 25, 2022 11:59:48 GMT -5 jhng said:

Glad the input was helpful. It was an interesting challenge and no need to apologise for the changing scope. As soon as I hear about a switching configuration that doesn't initially seem possibly, I find it very hard to let it go until I've found a solution.

When you are doing your listening, it's worth asking yourself what sort of tonal range you are looking for from the guitar. Are you looking to add options for fat, quack, twang, sparkle, squawk..? I'm sure there are other tonal 'food groups' as well. Then work out what kind additional pickup combos and tone control arrangements will give you that and find a switching schema to do it all.

I agree with the strategy. In terms of tonal range, I've learned not to try for One Guitar to Rule Them All; I can imagine ending up with an 8-coil beast that weighs 10lbs and has a labyrinth of controls, and in the end doesn't really do everything. At first, it feels like there are limiting constraints, but really it's healthier to consider any guitar's strong points and go after them. Are there tones left unrealized as a result? Get 'em with another axe that does them better.

That being said, experimentation has a home, and GN2 is a great place to share. I've mentioned an LP that I've tweaked pretty badly (stopping short of altering the body). Without having done that, I wouldn't have known, for example, that a [P-90-neck] in POoP with a [bridge rail] sounds very, very different compared to a [rail neck] in POoP with a [P-90 bridge]. Curious? The former is a lot beefier, lots more lows. That might seem predictable, given that a [P-90 neck] by itself will be warmer than a [P-90 bridge], but add in the rails and the difference is much more marked.

So, in my case, it's been a bit of a mix: get into a limitless sandbox to help learn how to zero in on what a given guitar type will be good at.

I'm very happy to think any other schemes you are considering, particularly if they appear to be impossible. Those are the most satisfying ones to design.

Yay! I'm thinking that after I dig around in my figurative sandbox a little more, I'll probably start another thread for asking and sharing on this particular project. I just hope the cats haven't been at the sandbox first.

[sumgai]

Feb 25, 2022 11:19:13 GMT -5 stevewf said:

... lab-on-a strap

I'll see you one "poor LP":






and raise you one Ultimate Utah:






Oh, so you think you can play this game, and you have a few more cards up your sleeve? OK, I'll just sweep the pot off the table right now ....















wait for it.......
















Behold, the ToggleCaster:







Yes, grasshopper, you are now rolling with some serious Nutz!


Hope that made your day!







sumgai

[stevewf]

Feb 26, 2022 2:48:51 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Feb 25, 2022 11:19:13 GMT -5 stevewf said:

... lab-on-a strap

Behold, the ToggleCaster:

Yes, grasshopper, you are now rolling with some serious Nutz!

Heavens. You had to go sniffing for everything that could be done to a signal within a guitar body!  I'm not worthy!
Somebody wanna start a "Lab on a Strap" thread for sharing?

[sumgai]

Feb 27, 2022 16:14:21 GMT -5 stevewf said:

Somebody wanna start a "Lab on a Strap" thread for sharing?

Errr, you did understand that the last one was a Photoshop job, yes? (I think it was done by JohnH, but I'm no longer certain of that....) But the Ultimate Utah is real, performed by our very own CheshireCat. You can find it using the Search button in the menu above.

Another 'strap-lab' that has its own set of threads was made by ourclarioncall, he's also findable using the Search button, or you can use the Member button as well.

As to sharing, we already have The Gallery forum for just that very thing. Nothing quite like a real version of the ToggleCaster, but certainly some eye-openers in there, check it out.

HTH





sumgai

[reTrEaD]

Feb 28, 2022 13:32:47 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Errr, you did understand that the last one was a Photoshop job, yes? (I think it was done by JohnH, but I'm no longer certain of that....)

That was a Runewalker shoop.


It started as a real guitar seen in the last image of this post:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/post/27291/thread



Later, shooped as a response to UnklMickey in this post:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/post/27302/thread

[sumgai]

Thanks, 'TrEaD. All I've got in my notebook is a generic link to the image, I've long since forgotten the genesis of the thing.

Nice trip down memory lane.

[jhng]

Hello stevewf -- I came up with another, unsolicited, wiring idea for your SHS setup. Diagram below. I note that you dropped the idea of SHOOP but are particularly keen on avoiding hu. It works like this:

Positions 2, 3 and 4 are straightforward hum-cancelling parallel pairs of N+M(s), N+B and B+M(n). Tone 1 is active whenever the Neck pickup is active and Tone 2 whenever the Bridge pickup is.

In positions 1 and 5, it is a little different. With the respective tone control at 10 you get the straightforward single coil. However, as you back off the tone to 9, it brings in the relevant hum-cancelling coil of the Middle pickup in a 'half-series' configuration. This will thicken up the bottom end while leaving the single coil top-end of the P90s and should also introduce some level of hum-cancellation. I thought it might hit your priorities rather nicely.

Here you go (presuming I haven't messed it up again):