Three Pickup PJ Bass wiring

[gontek]

Im customizing my J bass by adding a set of SD QP PJ pickups, but want to leave the vintage single coil neck pickup.  I have tested a configuration with a three way switch for J pickups (neck, bridge, both) and have the three way switch routed to a volume pot, the P pickup to a volume pot, with no tone, sort of like so:




Ive purchased two CTS push pull pots.  After a lot of thought and videos and trying to understand the push pull switch vs pot operation, I am thinking I can use the push pull to cut off either the J (switched) or the P pickup altogether, route through the pot for volume and use the other pot for tone.  Am I understanding the function of the Push Pull correctly?  

 

I know the 2nd diagram is probably not correct as far as the push pull holes line up for the on/off switch function, but in my mind this should allow for P only, any combo of J only, or any combo of P+J, plus full volume and tone.  I'm posting here to get some feedback, am I thinking about it correctly or missing some opportunity?  I havent found any wiring diagrams exactly like this. 

[newey]

gontek-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

You are on the right track, but you are lacking a crucial piece of information- namely, the manner in which push/pull switches are internally coonected.

The two lugs in the center, on each side, are the common lugs for each pole. The 3 lugs on the right-hand side form 1 pole of the switch, the 3 on the left form the other pole. The 2 poles do not connect to each other unless you connect them for some reason.

The following diagram should help. The P/P pots are shown upside down, as if you were wiring them from the underside of a pickguard. The red lines show the internal switch connections for each position of the switch.

With the shaft pushed in, the common lugs for each pole connect to the upper lugs as shown on the diagram (which will be the lower lugs if the pot were shown rightside-up). When pulled up, the common lugs connect to the lower (as per diagram) lugs.



For your purposes, you will only need to use one pole of each P/P switch. Otherwise, your diagram looks basically OK, so if you redo it with this information, we'll verify you've got it correct.

[gontek]

Thanks for the reply, here is a more complete diagram.  I multimetered the pots and I am pretty sure this will work.  

[gontek]

I should put something in the up-up position that is currently no pickup. I'm thinking a phase shift or an additional tone cap, any suggestion?

[gontek]

I might have to hollow out more of the body, but I'm thinking in a fuzz circuit would be sweet.

[gontek]

I just read about black ice from stewmac that might do the trick.

[newey]

Mar 2, 2022 12:45:18 GMT -5 gontek said:

I should put something in the up-up position that is currently no pickup. I'm thinking a phase shift or an additional tone cap, any suggestion?

A phase switch requires both poles of a DPDT switch, so that's out, you'd need a separate switch. I'm not clear on what a tone cap is going to be doing if the pickup is off.

Your diagram looks OK, but you do have the "all off" setting. This can be disconcerting if you accidentally turn all 3 pickups off in mid-song. However, it does allow you to keep the bass plugged in onstage with the pickups off, sort of a "stand by" mode to avoid feedback or noise if you plan to leave it plugged in while not being played, for example if it's an onstage spare axe.

However, you could rewire things so as to avoid that "all off" setting. There are a number of options, but my first thought was that one unused pole of one P/P could operate to turn the P-Bass pickup "on" when the J-Bass pickups are off, then the other P/P would do the opposite. That way, you'd still have the same pickup combinations, but if you turned the P-bass pup off, you'd still have the J-Bass on, and vice versa.

Or, alternatively, you could use what we call "binary tree" wiring with the 2 P/Ps working together. If you search for "binary tree" on the board here, you'll pull up a number of such diagrams. Basically, the P/Ps would operate such that, with both pushed in, you'd get the P-Bass and J-Bass pickups together in parallel (with the J-bass pups controlled by the 3-way, as you show it). Both P/Ps pulled up would give you the J-Bass selection in series with the P-bass pickup. One pot up, the other down gives you the P-bass alone, the other pot up and the opposite one down gives you the J-Bass selection alone.

I have a P-bass clone wired with binary tree wiring; it has a regular P-Bass pickup and then it has a Strat single-coil pup at the neck position, hidden under the pickguard. I like the series sound, but then again, I'm no bass player so don't take my word for anything when it comes to a bass guitar. One of the members here once told me that I "play bass like a guitarist", which I understood to be somewhat of an insult in the world of bass.

Installing a Black Ice is an option; these also can be DIY'd for probably less than the real deal one would cost you. There are threads on that hereabouts as well. An onboard fuzz is certainly doable as well, but onboard FX have a pretty checkered history, I know that personally I'd rather have a pedal with a footswitch and a power supply so I don't have to fuss with turning it on/off at the guitar, and so I don't have to worry about dead batteries. But to each his or her own, as they say. Having it in the guitar is certainly more portable, but I've never thought that the words "bass rig" and "portable" belonged in the same sentence together.

[gontek]

Thanks for that binary tree info, I wasn't aware of that concept but now I see lots of examples similar to what I'm doing with that term. I like the series idea but I just bought a black ice chip so maybe I can figure out the tree, and a fuzz/series/tone combo on the tone pot. I'll think about it more.

[gontek]

Mar 2, 2022 17:21:57 GMT -5 gontek said:

Thanks for that binary tree info, I wasn't aware of that concept but now I see lots of examples similar to what I'm doing with that term. I like the series idea but I just bought a black ice chip so maybe I can figure out the tree, and a fuzz/series/tone combo on the tone pot. I'll think about it more.

I'm a guitar player first and I have an active 6 string bass so I know I probably play it like a guitar too.

[gontek]

I adapted a diagram you did from 

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/9553/pickups-off-switches-vol-tone




I think its close, I have no idea if it will work.  

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/9553/pickups-off-switches-vol-tone

Up Up I would call Yauch mode.

[newey]

Sorry, gontek, I can't quite make out where some of the connections are going around the tone pot and there seems to be some crossing out at the volume pot. So I can't tell if it's right or not. Can you perhaps redraw that a bit more legibly?

EDIT: But looking at it some more, I see at least one major issue.

Think of it this way. My diagram you referenced is for two single-coil pickups. In your case, we are treating the J-Bass pickups as if they are a single unit, as the output from the 3-way switch is being treated just like the + output from one of the single coils in my diagram. For the purposes of our discussion, let's call the J-Bass pickups with their 3-way selector as equivalent to the "bridge pickup" in my diagram. The P-bass pickup we'll assume is the "neck pickup" from my diagram.

Now, your diagram shows all 3 pickups with one end grounded. In order to make a series connection, we have to build a "series chain". Only one end of the chain can be grounded; the other end has to go to the output. So, to put two pickups (or, as here, 2 "units") in series, we must "lift the ground" of one of the pickups to make the series connection between the two pickups/units.

If you look back at my diagram, the bridge pickup is permanently grounded; that's the ground end of my series chain. But the neck pickup isn't; if you ignore the intervening volume pot, you'll see both the neck pickup wires go to the first P/P switch. The switch connects the pickup "negative" wire either to ground (for the parallel setting) or to the other pickup for the series setting- although you have to trace those connections out through the second switch, as both switches are working together here.

So, even though I can't make out all the connections, the fact that all 3 pickups are permanently wired to ground tells me there's no series connection happening in your diagram.

Either end of the chain could be grounded. But, above I said we'd call the J-Bass unit the "bridge pickup". I made that choice for a reason. Since your two J-Bass pickups are being treated as a single unit, we'd have to lift both grounds of the J pickups to put them in series with the P-Bass pup. If we did that, we'd play hell with the 3-way selector switch, it's only a single-pole switch,we can't be lifting grounds with it.

So, we'll treat the J-Bass unit as if it were the bridge pickup from my diagram and leave both J-Bass pickups affixed to ground at one end of the chain. We'll lift the ground of the P-Bass pup instead, so treat it like the neck pickup from my diagram. I think if you redraw your latest with that in mind, you'll be able to accurately translate that scheme to yours.

The Black Ice, I can't say as I don't know how those are typically wired. Did yours come with a diagram or instructions?

[gontek]

here it is neater, I dont think I am getting through the volume pot the right way, now I will read you last post

EDIT 

I think I figured out what you said about the ground from the J pickups going into the switch for series and that should be good here, everything else will be properly common grounded and I'm not showing that for simplicity.  

Now I think you are saying do that ground to the switch from the P pickup rather than the neck pickup?  Easy enough, I can do that, sort of makes sense to me. 

I think the black ice just attaches a pin to hot and a pin to ground, so I'd put it somewhere on the black wire that is the up up connector.

[Deleted]

If I'm reading this right
UU from Select Switch + Middle
UD from Select Switch
DU Middle
DD from Select Switch

Tone control looks to be over the whole of the potentiometer (needs to be half way) and looks like ground both sides. Not shown ground any where so I took it as read

[newey]

gontek-

@angellahash is right, there's a few issues, but the big one is that you haven't addressed what I mentioned earlier about lifting the ground wire for the P-Bass pickups. Your latest doesn't even show the grounds, and we can't "assume" the grounds go to ground, because we're lifting the one.

So, show both J-Bass pickups as having their negative connections permanently wired to ground. The P-Bass pickup will have both of its wires going to the one push/pull switch, as shown on my diagram you referenced.

You also show a black wire running from the back of the 3-way switch to the push/pull. That is not a signal-carrying wire, that's a frame ground that simply grounds out the frame of the switch to minimize noise. It shouldn't go to the push/pull switch at all, it just gets grounded to wherever you are doing your grounding.

Go back and re-read what I said earlier- treat the P-Bass pickup like it is the neck pickup from my diagram. Your latest diagram doesn't do so.

Also, your diagram is showing the push/pull pots with the shafts standing upright, as if we were looking through an invisible pickguard to see the wiring. My diagram shows them upside down, since that will be their orientation as you solder the connections, like you're working from the underside of the pickguard*. It's OK to draw it as you did, but you have to "mirror-image" the connections to the pots, from right to left, and you have to swap up for down on the push/pull switch wiring. Also, as angellahash mentioned, your tone control needs the input to go to its wiper, the center connection. As shown, your tone control won't work.

* I am not suggesting soldering over the pickguard. Make a cardboard template to which you can mount the pots/switches in the orientation they will have on the actual pickguard. Do all your soldering over the template, and when you have the whole harness completed, you then demount everything from the cardboard template and mount the harness to the actual pickguard.

[gontek]

You guys are right, I almost got the switch logic then connected the pickups wrong and missed the tone throw. I'm going to have to redraw this next week in something more versatile than a paint program, working today and vacation this weekend. Thanks!

I'm using the cardboard trick, it's going to be a real tight fit but I will try to mirror the pots.

[gontek]

I didn't want to rout more of the body and putt more holes in the pickguard but it would be worth it for a yauch mode switch or pot on the black ice chip.

[Deleted]

fell you a person that learns from doing than reading. to see the effects.

I dont know what real type of switch you have


Hmm but I guess DD should be guitar switch selector on its own
That way you keep a standard PJ type

[gontek]

edited just now to fix an error I had in the tone pot

[Deleted]

Ground Control to Major Tom
DOWN UP is missing ground on the middle pickup, unless this pickup is in series it doesn't have a ground as I can see

UP DOWN and UP UP only have the two pickups from the switch as they have ground

------

[gontek]

[gontek]

do I need to switch the leads from the P pickup between C1 and c2 to get the right switch selection?

[Deleted]

looks a lot better, you have all the outcomes you can get .. I am taking the Graphic at the Top of the Switches is the Resister to show which is UP and DOWN
Up Up to me is J Pickup Selector + P Pickup (Parallel)
Up Down J Pickup Selector
Down Up P Pickup
Down Down P Pickup x J Pickup Selelctor (Series)

Series
Pickup ONE linked to the rear end of Pickup TWO and then Output

Parallel
Pickup ONE to Output and Pickup Two to Output

[gontek]

sounds good, that's what I'm going for.  I used tinycad for this and those switches best matched my CTS Push Pull switches, but I don't know what those resistor symbols over the top mean either.  I need to change that on the note but I don't even care as long as those are the results.  Thanks, This site is awesome!

[gontek]

almost ready to rock.  noticed I almost forgot to ground the white wire there as I was looking at this.  Im going to tap that jack plate with a hammer to shape it in better later.

[gontek]

Those solid wires are nice colors but they didn't work out.  After stuffing it all in with far too thick of solder and it not having continuity to the jacks I took it all back apart, found out one of my CTS switches was bad, switched everything to 250K classic (smaller, 2x) push pull pots and a 250K pot for black ice and rewiring with stranded wire from some recycled Christmas lights I have finally done it and it works!  I used an 0.047 uf cap for tone, and should have shown a wire from the 3 way selector to ground in my diagram.  I love the distortion.