Simple (maybe?) SSS series/parallel wiring request

[bpf8hz]

hello world

I've been looking for a SSS S/P schematic to copy-paste or adapt to a Strat project. The schematic wishlist is something like:

1. Master Volume, Neck + Bridge Tone, Middle Tone (OR Neck + Bridge Volume, Middle Volume, Master Tone - don't know which one's more realistic to implement or, actually, which one's more fun).
   EDIT: to keep things simpler and arguably more fun, I think it'd be a cool alternative to have Master Volume + Master Tone + Middle Series Blend for pots. Don't know how it would act in reality, though;
   
2. DPDT switch for series/parallel switching (probably as a push-pull pot);
   
3. Pickup switching* (familiar 5-way Strat switching - mostly):
   
   • S/P switch down:
     1. Bridge
        
     2. Bridge + Middle
        
     3. Middle
        
     4. Neck + Middle
        
     5. Neck
        
   • S/P switch up:
     1. Bridge
        
     2. Bridge X Middle + passive bass cut**
        
     3. Middle
        
     4. Neck X Middle + passive bass cut**
        
     5. Neck

*It'd be nice to use a regular 2P5T five-way switch as I've seen some similar wiring diagrams made with those. My intuition, however, tells me that with separate volume/tone controls the use of a 4P5T is inevitable. Could be a reason to revisit those Megaswitches I had some trouble with a few months ago.

**Passive bass cut will probably be a simple RC thingie akin to Yamaha's Dry Switch. It'd be nice to reuse the same RC network on both positions 2&4 in series mode. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to keep this thing in mind as it should be quite easy to wire it to the otherwise ready circuit.

This looks like an easily comprehensible circuit from a player's perspective, though I doubt it's quite as intuitive from the actual wiring perspective.

Anyway: I guess it's safe to assume that this wheel has already been invented and it's just a matter of finding a ready-to-use schematic - and this is where I've failed miserably. There seem to be quite a few similar designs on some PhosteniX pages, though nothing seems to fit. Searching the forum has also proven to be fruitless at this point.

Can anyone point me in the right direction, pretty please? I'm sure the schematic I need is just one thread away...

[reTrEaD]

Feb 8, 2024 2:29:16 GMT -5 bpf8hz said:

Can anyone point me in the right direction, pretty please? I'm sure the schematic I need is just one thread away...

The essence of framework for what you're asking for does exist, but it does require some adaptation to fit your needs. It will require a 4P5T selector (either a superswitch or a megaswitch M) and a DPDT (which could be a free-standing switch or a pot with a push-pull or push-push switch mounted on it.

I doubt it's possible to do two volume controls but a single volume and a choice of which of 2 tone controls is selected, dependent upon what position the selector switch is in, seems likely.

We can start with the structure found in Guitar Wiring Design Tutorial: Strat-o-Various Project pt3

SPOILER: Click to show

We can assign the Neck and Bridge pickups to the foundation group and since we only have one pickup (middle) that needs to go in the raised group, we can eliminate one of the two pickups shown in that drawing. That will free up one pole of the switch which will be used for selecting the desired tone control. The pot and cap for the optional series 'fader' can be eliminated and the series link will always insert the low-cut circuit in the series mode.



Connecting the dots:
SL/HOT connects to the Neck or Bridge pickup in positions 4 and 2, respectively.
HOT/HOT connects to the Neck pickup in position 5, to the Middle Pickup in positions 4, 3, and 2, and to the Bridge pickup in position 1.
The tail of the Middle pickup is connected to SL/GND in positions 4 and 2, and to GND in position 3.
Hot connects to the input of the volume control and the common of the unshown section of the selector, whose task is to choose which tone control is active.

I won't have time to create a wiring diagram, but I present this structure for the benefit of someone who might choose to press forward. Perhaps newey , Yogi B , JohnH , MattB , or some other member might be interested in this as a starting point. Or maybe one of them will choose a different starting point. idk.

[bpf8hz]

Feb 8, 2024 13:44:21 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

...

Thanks a lot for your input! I've drafted some sort of schematic; could you please comment on its correctness? BC/MC/NC is bridge/mid/neck cold, BH/MH/NH is bridge/mid/neck hot, respectively.

SPOILER: Click to show

[reTrEaD]

Feb 13, 2024 12:16:20 GMT -5 bpf8hz said:

I've drafted some sort of schematic; could you please comment on its correctness?

It looks okay to me, although the (treble-cut) tone circuits aren't explicit.  I reckon you intend the 'main' tone pot and cap, selected by the upper section of the switch to go between the lug marked 'tone' and ground.  This will be an Master tone control on positions 1, 2, 4, and 5.  It would make sense for the Middle (treble-cut) tone pot and cap to connect directly across the Middle pickup (from MH to MC).  This will function as a master tone control in position 3 (Middle pickup only).  In positions 2 and 4 when the S/P switch is in the series mode, this control will reduce the treble contribution of the Middle pickup (and increase the treble contribution of the Neck or Bridge pickup) when rotated counter-clockwise.  In positions 2 and 4 with the S/P switch in the parallel mode, this control will be in parallel with the 'main' tone control.

If you want the S/P switch to be in Series mode when pulled, the end of the switch with the RC network should be closest to the pickguard.


EDIT: I misspoke on the roles of the two tones controls when in the series mode. I'll clean that up later.

[bpf8hz]

Feb 13, 2024 21:31:45 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

It looks okay to me, although the (treble-cut) tone circuits aren't explicit.  I reckon you intend the 'main' tone pot and cap, selected by the upper section of the switch to go between the lug marked 'tone' and ground.

I've abstracted the tone circuits away so as to not clutter the diagram even more. The "TONE" thing is supposed to be the N & B treble cut control; the "MID TONE" thing is supposed to be the exact same thing for M.

I'll try to post a more elaborate draft a bit later.

I have a hard time figuring out whether MID TONE is isolated to the middle pickup in all positions, though. I think

In positions 2 and 4 with the S/P switch in the parallel mode, this control will be in parallel with the 'main' tone control.

means that MID TONE is, in fact, not isolated to a particular pickup... Or I may be getting lost in the way this beast is supposed to function.

Also, I don't think I catch your drift here:

It would make sense for the Middle (treble-cut) tone pot and cap to connect directly across the Middle pickup (from MH to MC). This will function as a master tone control in position 3 (Middle pickup only).

1. Shouldn't it be OK to connect MID TONE parallel to MH (the way it is on the drawing) and call it a day?
2. Does "connecting MID TONE directly across M" result in the controls acting differently? Or is it just a "best practices" thing?
   
3. What exactly does "connecting directly across the pickup" mean?

Regarding the S/P switch positioning - sure thing, and it's always a good idea to probe the "orientation" of a particular switch right before fitting it in its place

[bpf8hz]

Feb 14, 2024 1:48:07 GMT -5 bpf8hz said:

I'll try to post a more elaborate draft a bit later.

And there it goes!

SPOILER: Click to show

[reTrEaD]

If you connect your tone controls as-shown in your drawing, you will select them as shown in the table below:

	Parallel Mode		Series Mode
Position	B/N Tone	Middle Tone	B/N Tone	Middle Tone
1	Bridge		Bridge
2	Master	Master	Bridge	Master
3		Middle		Middle
4	Master	Master	Neck	Master
5	Neck		Neck

---

If you break the connection from the wiper of the Middle tone pot to ground and connect the wiper to MC, you will select them as shown in the table below:

	Parallel Mode		Series Mode
Position	B/N Tone	Middle Tone	B/N Tone	Middle Tone
1	Bridge		Bridge
2	Master	Master	Bridge	Middle
3		Middle		Middle
4	Master	Master	Neck	Middle
5	Neck		Neck

[bpf8hz]

Feb 14, 2024 14:11:26 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

If you connect your tone controls as-shown in your drawing, you will select them as shown in the table below:

	Parallel Mode		Series Mode
Position	B/N Tone	Middle Tone	B/N Tone	Middle Tone
1	Bridge		Bridge
2	Master	Master	Bridge	Master
3		Middle		Middle
4	Master	Master	Neck	Master
5	Neck		Neck

---

If you break the connection from the wiper of the Middle tone pot to ground and connect the wiper to MC, you will select them as shown in the table below:

	Parallel Mode		Series Mode
Position	B/N Tone	Middle Tone	B/N Tone	Middle Tone
1	Bridge		Bridge
2	Master	Master	Bridge	Middle
3		Middle		Middle
4	Master	Master	Neck	Middle
5	Neck		Neck

Oh wow, that's really informative, thanks! I think the preferable mode of operation would be the second one.

Makes me wonder, though: is it possible to somehow isolate the middle tone control to just one pickup in parallel circuit mode, or is it an inevitable tradeoff of this design one would have to live with? Parallel tone controls don't seem to be such a bad thing per se, however I'm curious if it is possible to stick to the originally proposed "isolated tone control" concept 100%.

At this point I also wonder whether traditional Strat wirings actually incorporate parallel tone controls in those notch positions (or whatever they're called) by design. Shame on me for not researching this beforehand - my laziness and experience with predominantly moderately vintage 2-knob guitars (and a handful of LP-style 4-knob ones) has got the best of me, it seems.

[reTrEaD]

Feb 14, 2024 14:43:48 GMT -5 bpf8hz said:

Makes me wonder, though: is it possible to somehow isolate the middle tone control to just one pickup in parallel circuit mode, or is it an inevitable tradeoff of this design one would have to live with? Parallel tone controls don't seem to be such a bad thing per se, however I'm curious if it is possible to stick to the originally proposed "isolated tone control" concept 100%.

You're pretty much stuck with having each tone control, affecting both pickups, when you connect two pickups in parallel.  We could add some resistors to provide some separation between the two parallel circuits.  That would result in each tone control having full effect on the pickup it's assigned to, and less (but still some) effect on the tone of the pickup it's not assigned to.  But doing that will affect how the two pickups interact with each other electrically.  And that could result in a slightly different sound than having the two pickups connected directly together.  Probably a reduction of the resonant peak that normally exists around 6kHz.

Feb 14, 2024 14:43:48 GMT -5 bpf8hz said:

At this point I also wonder whether traditional Strat wirings actually incorporate parallel tone controls in those notch positions (or whatever they're called) by design. 

Strats suffer the same malady in the #4 position.
Turning the Neck tone control CCW, reduces the treble of both the Neck pickup and the Middle pickup.
Turning the Middle tone control CCW, reduces the treble of both the Neck pickup and the Middle pickup.

[bpf8hz]

Thanks a lot! Hope I'll be able to work on this project sometime next week. I'm a bit worried about those problematic Megaswitches I'd have to fiddle with (again), though I think I have a spare no-name 4P5T lying around somewhere just in case.

Feb 14, 2024 23:10:09 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

We could add some resistors to provide some separation between the two parallel circuits.  That would result in each tone control having full effect on the pickup it's assigned to, and less (but still some) effect on the tone of the pickup it's not assigned to.  But doing that will affect how the two pickups interact with each other electrically.  And that could result in a slightly different sound than having the two pickups connected directly together.  Probably a reduction of the resonant peak that normally exists around 6kHz.

Ah, so that's what those resistors are for. I remember scratching my head looking at some late Jolana schematics. The one I vaguely remember seemed to not only isolate tone controls as you've already described, but to also split the pickup (that is otherwise in HB mode & shunted a bit) if its tone was set higher than 9/10. Fascinating stuff.

[reTrEaD]

Feb 15, 2024 4:14:27 GMT -5 bpf8hz said:

I'm a bit worried about those problematic Megaswitches I'd have to fiddle with (again), though I think I have a spare no-name 4P5T lying around somewhere just in case.

What sort of problems have you had with Megaswitches? In my opinion, a 4P5T superswitch is good but a Megaswitch-M is far superior.

[bpf8hz]

Feb 15, 2024 10:16:24 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

What sort of problems have you had with Megaswitches? In my opinion, a 4P5T superswitch is good but a Megaswitch-M is far superior.

It's been discussed in this thread. Made me finally create an account here after keeping it R/O for quite a while
Looking back at that particular problem, it was probably me wiring things up the dumb way.

[reTrEaD]

Feb 15, 2024 10:35:53 GMT -5 bpf8hz said:

Looking back at that particular problem, it was probably me wiring things up the dumb way.

Yeah, I reckon it's easy to get confused on which pad is which on a Megaswitch.
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8371/terminals-pole-grigsby-schaller-megaswitch
And since they're pads, rather than lugs, it does require better soldering skills.
But the dentent mechanism has a firmer, more positive feel.

[bpf8hz]

Feb 15, 2024 11:09:19 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Yeah, I reckon it's easy to get confused on which pad is which on a Megaswitch.
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8371/terminals-pole-grigsby-schaller-megaswitch
And since they're pads, rather than lugs, it does require better soldering skills.
But the dentent mechanism has a firmer, more positive feel.

I've used that reference page quite a bit, yeah. It seemed to me that I had succeeded in numbering the contact points the right way as it's, ahem, not that hard to do... Something could get mixed up in my head at the time, IDK.

Regarding the moving part - so true! It's such a shame I couldn't make use of those Megaswitches in the first place, they feel amazing (and they have a nice high-quality, modern vibe to them due to the way that PCB is integrated into the switch). I ended up getting a proper Oak Grigsby switch just for the sake of it (had to try it given the opportunity) and got largely disappointed - it feels sluggish and really doesn't like those notch positions. Even worse, the wiring I've put that superswitch into has the pickup's cold and hot swap their roles in positions 4 and 5, so every time my switch "lags" there I don't get wrong/mixed signal - I get nothing at all! That's a huge bummer in a live setting.

(and somehow that garbage manages to cost two times the Megaswitch M price in my region)

May I ask you to (dis)approve the contact numbering (more like lettering) here? I figured I'd better ask while we're at it, as I really wouldn't like to end up fruitlessly debugging the whole schematic time and time again (while being so sure I haven't made some silly mistake along the road) .-.

SPOILER: Click to show

EDIT: I might play around with those contact groups' arrangement to optimise the wiring process. As far as I understand, that shouldn't create any issues if the original numbering (lettering, he-he) is correct.

[reTrEaD]

Feb 16, 2024 5:53:18 GMT -5 bpf8hz said:

May I ask you to (dis)approve the contact numbering (more like lettering) here? I figured I'd better ask while we're at it, as I really wouldn't like to end up fruitlessly debugging the whole schematic time and time again (while being so sure I haven't made some silly mistake along the road) .-.

The Megaswitch letters all seem to match up with appropriate (superswitch) lugs

Feb 16, 2024 5:53:18 GMT -5 bpf8hz said:

EDIT: I might play around with those contact groups' arrangement to optimise the wiring process. As far as I understand, that shouldn't create any issues if the original numbering (lettering, he-he) is correct.

It can be a bit tricky, exchanging sections, when wiring a Megaswitch.  If you highlight the commons and include the 'role' of each pad in your depiction of the switch, that can help avoid confusion.
0 = Common
1 - Throw it connects to when the lever is in the Bridge position.
5 - Throw it connects to when the lever is in the Neck position.

L	0	5	M
K	1	4	N
J	2	3	O
I	3	2	P
H	4	1	Q
G	5	0	R
F	0	5	S
E	1	4	T
D	2	3	U
C	3	2	V
B	4	1	W
A	5	0	X

As you can see, the pattern on the right is very different from the pattern on the left.

[bpf8hz]

Oof, life happened and I couldn't write back earlier. Case closed, it seems! I've successfully wired the thing up, but I had to ditch those Megaswitches - I'll just assume they came from a faulty batch and finally get myself some peace of mind.

The schematic works great, and it conveniently provides a default-Strat mode and a beefed-up-in-between-Strat mode (for which I might need to drop the bass cutoff frequency a bit, although Dry Switch default values work pretty well as-is).

Here's a fun fact: engaging series mode and turning the B+N tone control down cleans up the signal in a weird way, and something tells me it's a phase thing as there are capacitors in play. Essentially, in series mode turning the B+N tone down makes the signal progressively out of phase - up to 90 degrees, I guess, which lines up with how capacitors shift the phase when there are no extras (pots, for example) at play; at the same time the M tone knob act as a regular tone control. This allows ruling in a lot more (arguably) useful tones from the same guitar; something like a turned-down-a-bit humbucker or a warmer single coil (Jazzmaster-style, I guess? never heard a proper one in action, unfortunately).

The only (kind of?) downside here is that it's hard to get rid of that Strat charisma - the quack. And I think there's not quite enough "pickup sustain" to properly imitate humbuckers, although it might be due to using vintage-esque not-so-hot (≤ 6kOhm) pickups - I think getting a hotter bridge pickup in particular could do wonders. Maybe I'll try that sometime, maybe not.

reTrEaD, once again - thanks a lot for your help!

[bpf8hz]

I've been digging through the wiring forum board lately and it made wonder: is it possible to modify the schematic we've got here to allow for a BxN OoP (I don't think it's quite possible to do that with BxN being in phase without some pretty major changes)? I'm thinking of some sort of a "master" SOoP/default Strat push-pull switch that would be active in positions 1 & 5, maybe 1 & 2 & 4 & 5, actually (considering the wiring that's already there). That seems to raise two questions in total:

1. Is it actually possible without coming up with a totally different wiring?
   
2. If such a switch would also be active in the notch positions, how would it possibly interact with the existing middle series switch?
   

EDIT: now that I think about it, it'd be fun to have the mentioned push-pull act as a N / Nx(±B) in pos. 1 or 1 & 2 and as a B / N+B in pos. 5 or 4 & 5. What are your thoughts?