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Post by dannyhill on Sept 14, 2012 7:00:03 GMT -5
Go for it!
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 14, 2012 4:13:25 GMT -5
Hi John,
Thanks for thinking this through. I do want to have nxmxb in blower for series mode though. And am I right in understanding that in series with dpdt off for m in parallel I will get:
BxN, BxN(*), N, Nbypass, B, BxNbypass?
and with dpdt on:
BxN, BxN(*)+M, M+M, M+Nbypass, M+B, BxNbypass
If so, I think I would prefer not to go ahead with this idea. Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 13, 2012 4:43:47 GMT -5
Hi John,
Lets keep all the positions we have decided on so far, i.e.: 1 to 6:- Parallel: B+N, N, M+N, M, M+B, B(*) Series: BxN, BxMxN(*), NxM, MxNbypass, MxB, BxNbypass
On the extra switch issue: I can have 3 switches as well as the blower, selector and parallel/series switch. They would therefore be 2 phase and the third could be tone cap switching, strangle switch or add in parallel one of the pups (for n+m+b, bxm+n etc).
I could trial the 3rd switch between the three different options. But knowing how responsive the lipsticks are, even though Im changing the pots from 100k linear vol and 1M audio tone to 250k audio and 500k audio, not sure if tone cap switching will add much and with that extra volume impedance they will be brighter still so the strangle will probably be overkill. So lets go with the third switch to add a pup in parallel to get n+m+b. Keeping in mind all the 'cross options' of mixing series with a pup in parallel, which one do you recommend? How about adding the middle so as to get n+m+b in position 1 parallel, and then addition of middle in parallel in positions 1 and 6 of series....if that's possible?
Thanks,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 12, 2012 17:15:11 GMT -5
ok. But no chance of n+m+b? useleess too? lets swap the mnbypass and nxmxb around too. position 2 is odd as it has no analog with parallel wiring, nor a slighty thicker sound. nxmxb is thicker, so there is some logic there. D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 12, 2012 3:31:49 GMT -5
Sorry John,
Brain malfunction. Dano labelling is: 1 to 6:- Parallel: b+N, N, m+n, m, m+b, b(*) Series: bxn, nxbbypass, nxm, bxmxn(*), mxb, bxnbypass
So you suggest:- 1 to 6:- Parallel: B+N, N, M+N, M, M+B, B(*) Series: BxN, MxNbypass, NxM, BxMxN(*), MxB, BxNbypass
"Putting BxNbypass at the same end of the switch as B is sensible because it sounds much like a slightly thicker version of B. In fact, there is some logic in all the arrangements bewteen the series an parallel/single options."
Wouldn't BxMbypass or MxBbypass be more logical in position 6? Or are they just as less useful as MXNbypass (or less useful still) than BxNbypass?
The phase switches need to be standard two position, beacuse if we use on-off-on, the off setting will break the whole chain in series mode, killing all pickups.
Sure, but I can use them as kill switches at either extreme (1 or 6), and is there any way to use them to make n+m+b? Better get some more on/on's just in case...
"If that can be agreed, Ill start the diagram, starting with the schematic, which might happen over a few days due to other commitments."
Sure, no hurries. I wont start it until the w/end after this at the earliest.
D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 11, 2012 15:16:09 GMT -5
Hi John,
Sorry for the confusion. I was using Dano numbering i.e.:
6 to 1:- Parallel: b+N, N, m+n, m, m+b, b(*) Series: bxn, nxbbypass, nxm, bxmxn(*), mxb, bxnbypass
Two phase switches, neck and bridge (middle is rwrp). I will use on off on's.
Ok, MxNbypass is good instead of nxbbypass in position 5. Do you think bxnbypass or MxBbypass in position 1. The second is more 'logical'. But the first might be more useful?
D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 10, 2012 17:03:42 GMT -5
Hi John,
Superb! With the blower is good. I am to keep as much Dano like as possible. BTW Any idea why a 100k linear vol/1M audio tone has more or less an on/off function? The pickup response is all in the very high end? Or is it my ears?
D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 10, 2012 7:12:13 GMT -5
Hi JohnH,
Anyway can we change the schematic with a 4p6T for:
Parallel: b+N, N, m+n, m, m+b, b(*) Series: bxn, nxbbypass, nxm, bxmxn(*), mxb, bxnbypass
You know, a simple mind and all.....
D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 9, 2012 6:10:53 GMT -5
Hi Sumgai, Many thanks for taking the time to reply. There is a lot of information there and hopefully later I will have to time to fully read and reply, but later I'm on the road. For now: In Position 6 of the selectomatic the 4P6T is wired so ONLY the bridge is connected. However, the way I have re-wired the connections TO the 4P6T it should be B+M+N (or possibly B-M+N?) when I 'throw' my extra centre switch at the bottom of my schematic. Now when I disconnect one pup, say the neck and then have just B+M (or maybe B-M) I get less bassy noise (i.e. hum), if I reverse the phase of the bridge compared to the middle pup it gets worse so pretty sure its B+M. So there has to be some extra audio component entering the chain, and that unfortunately can only be deceiphered by removing the 4P6T and check the connections on it. Those are original Dano, and most are printed on the PCB. ( JohnH I need to remove this switch and then label on my schematic the connections and also label each switch and switch position as you say. Thanks for the Mouser headsup) Maybe Sumgai, I am getting series connections coming in at that selectomatic position and hence no way to hum cancel as you rightly say. The cap idea is interesting too. I follow your logic with regards to perceiving less hum in series than parallel, although my limited experience on a strat and two teles suggests the opposite, and without wanting to start a positing war, agrees with what JohnH and reTrEaD posted elsewhere with parallel being better at noise cancelling than series. In reTrEaD words: "If the higher DC resistance is because of more turns, I would expect the hum output to be greater on that pickup (all other things being equal). I reckon (no proof) that the better hum-cancellation would occur when the dissimilar pickups are in parallel. " In JohnH's words: "The overall hypothesis for two pickups would be that if you have two similar pickups, one with more turns than the other, the extra hum created by more turns is compensated in a parallel combo, by the extra impedance. This benefit would not occur in series though." JohnH - I think the simpler 5+5 or a strat lovers could be on the cards if I can't 'fudge' the Dano 4P6T into giving me parallel positions. Unless someone know's how the Dano switch is wired it might be better to check back in once I get it out later this week and draw up the printed connections. Thanks all, D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 8, 2012 9:20:39 GMT -5
sumgai, I have to agree with JohnH. But in any case, without wanting to rub salt into wounds. You will notice that I have wired the Dano so when in parallel, all three on, I can switch off the neck or bridge (in theory). Tap test confirms this (to my ear), but they still have louder residual 60HZ hum than their corresponding series positions e.g. n+m and nXm or m+b and mxb. JohnH, Is my wiring scheme bogus? Can I cancel input from one of the three pups in parallel or will the 3rd find some way into the mix through the selectomatic switch? In a worse case scenario, I could move away from default series and single pup switching to 5 way strat like, with series positons available at a flick of the switch either in a strat lovers strat, or interestingly in your 5+5+ (with added phase, tone cap and strangle switching of course :-) ). How would a 5+5+ work with a 4 pole 6 way? Cheers, D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 7, 2012 16:45:35 GMT -5
Hi Newey,
I'me getting good noise cancelling with M in series with B or N. Bettr N actually. When I flip the 2nd switch on the left, in my naive minds eyse I should get all three in parallell, then through putting the 1st or 3rd switch in the centre I should get M+N (or B) which is hum cancelling. But I get hum. Admittedly less than with all three in position. I suspect that somewhere in the circuit there is some inbalance leading to not perfext M+N or M+B. Tap tests are good. The thing is that the middle pup is weaker, its 60Hz noise level is even lower. Maybe this mismatch is ok in series but not in parallel? But that was not what was concluded here. So is it down to unmatched pups? Badly wired guitar Phooey diagram.
Travel safe!
D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 5, 2012 12:32:41 GMT -5
Is it that incomprehensible? I didn't draw the wired up selectomatic switch properly as I couldn't see any more connections but for sure there are some there on the board, no more wires though. D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 4, 2012 12:37:46 GMT -5
Hi, Here's the wiring diagram: Cheers, DH
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 4, 2012 10:43:28 GMT -5
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 4, 2012 5:18:04 GMT -5
Hi reTrEaD,
Sorry. I'm rbbish at this communican lark. The treble bleed is across the top ganged pot, the one directly under the where the shaft exits, so its on the volume pot.
I checked last night and the RF hum on the middle pickup is about half that of the other two. I have it jacked right up next to the strings, slightly less than the bridge to get similar volumes, still slightly less I would say. Guess I could back off the bridge pup but then I would need to lower the neck which is already half recessed. By the way, as expected, the neck and middle or bridge and middle parallel combos sounded more middle than neck or bridge respectively.
The middle pickup is a GFS RWRP, which I replaced the original non RWRP with. It definitely has a different 'voice'. I know its an A2 and sounds like one, natural 'springyness' and compression going on and not scooped like A5s. I would like to know what the Danos are made from. Some say the originals are A6. This is a re-issue from sometime between 1998 and 2010.
But if they cancel fairly well in series and there is a definite hum in parallel then it must be my wiring. Diagram to follow...
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 4, 2012 3:25:34 GMT -5
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 3, 2012 11:11:51 GMT -5
Hi reTrEaD,
I have it wired as in the diagram of my second post. I dont know what you call CW (clockwise?) and CCW (counter clockwise) is? Looking down from the shaft or up from under the shell? I expect the former. As you can see then its between the ccw and wiper. BTW I have a 0.001uF treble bleed (220KOhm resistor in parallel) across those two lugs. That change anything? On most guitars I have the CW tone lug grounded and the cap goes from the wiper to the hot (CCW) of the volume pot. Does this 'Dano style' wiring change anything or is there just very little roll off range for a 100k linear/treble bleed volume with 1MOhm Log tone?
I will see if I can draw a diagram later... Half the problem is that I don't understand how the selectomatic switch is wired. Maybe my 'parallel' fudge resulted in poorer noise cancellation due to hanging connections or perhaps I just friend the switch?
My question on the other thread was do with my middle RWRP GFS alnico II when combined with N or B (original 4k? alnivo V? VI?) pickups cancelling more hum in series than in parallel. Could be due to my wiring, or due to non-matched pickups. Would height adjustment help?
On ebeee I cannot find 4 pole 6 way rotary switches, just 2 pole. I wired the my version of strat lovers with a 2 pole 5 way. But will that not give the 'in-between' positions like on a regular 5 way strat switch? If not then it has to be a 5 way 4 pole...
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 3, 2012 8:30:01 GMT -5
Hi guys,
I have a question.
If I have two pickups of a similar design but quite different DC resistance and Alnico material but one is RWRP wrt to the other, will I get humcancelling in series but less hum cancelled in parallel configs? Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 3, 2012 8:15:45 GMT -5
BTW The tone control seems to be virtually on/off irrespective of using 0.1, 0.047 or 0.033uF. Would moving to a 250(T)/500(V) be better? Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 2, 2012 14:03:55 GMT -5
Hi all, Many thanks for all of your contributions. @sumgau: Not sure I want to go down the Brian May route, not least as I don't have enough clearance in the cavity for so many large slide toggles unless I remove the metal housing the stock pots/switches are attached to. As it is I can get one 4PDT on/on and 3 DPDT mini slides on the back. For sure I have two holes on the front where the 3pdt AND 4p6t would be to put two large toggles. You see I don't want to drill any more holes on the front or back (except on the back cover which I made up). reTrEaD: Did you mean just removing the 4P6T? Or did you mean re-wiring the 4P6T? If re-wiring it woulñd give me what I want, then fine. A quick look on Eee-bey though does not show any 4P6T switches, so I'm reticent about exploring that. Anyway, I have already spent 7-10 days soldering/burning/swapping/wiring and so for now I have finished it in an option close to how it was earlier today. For now I have it wired so into the selectomatic we have: (Bg to ground) Bh/Mg Mh/Ng Nh I then have a switch (4PDT) to reverse Mg and Mh around on their assignment and join them to the 1st and 3rd, so I get: (Bg/Mg to ground) Bh/Mh Mg/Ng Nh/Mh I found out that all positions are now nice and quiet except for 6 (was bridge only) and 2 (was neck only) where I get ALL 3 in parallel. I then add 2 DPDT (on/off/on) slides for neck on/off/out of phase and bridge on/off/out of phase. The DPDTs and 4PDTs have the pickups wired to them and they send their outputs to the 4P6T. Unless I'm mistaken, I will check later. I can now get all series positions in/out of phase plus B+N+M/-B+M-N/-B+M+N/B+M/B-M/M+N/M-N in positions 6 or 2. So no mixed series and parallel, nor B+N or B-N. But hey-ho. I do need to check the possibilities after dinner now I can switch the bridge on/off and reverse phase them and see if that changes anything in 5-3 and 1. In my modified strat lovers strat (I wired in the add neck in parallel option and a reverse pickups wiring for the 5 way for neck and bridge so I can get -N+M etc) I get 31 unique combinations (although I may have missed some repetitions). So that could be one option one day if I get a rotary 5 way or 6 way. Is it easier to wire for series and parallel plus phase if its 4 pole rather than 2? Anybody have a diagram for that? Thanks again y'all!
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 2, 2012 8:47:31 GMT -5
Hi John,
Thanks for that, but you seem to have lost me, when you introduced the super strat switch. I have no idea how to wire the 4P6T switch to achieve the same, except for adding DPDTs... The 4P6T seems very easy to 'burn out', I've already had to re-solder loose connections and would like to minimise work there if possible in case one day I want to go back to stock and sell it. Cheers,
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 2, 2012 5:39:37 GMT -5
New scheme or original? :-) Original seems to follow this scheme: www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=999150Here is the wiring after I swapped the original middle pickup for a rwrp (wrt) other two. Uploaded with ImageShack.usThe pickups are: Neck: Danelectro lipstick (alnico V), 4K DC resistance? Middle: GFS lipstick (alnico II), 6K DC resistanceaccording to GFS. Bridge: Danelectro lipstick (alnico V), 4K DC resistance? Middle seems to be weaker on a tap test though. Tone cap: 0.1uF 3PDT blow switch bypasses 'selectomatic' switch. 'Selectomatic' switch is the control in the centre of the photo. The thin red and white wires are from the pickups. I think this page shows the selectomatic I use: music-electronics-forum.com/t14232/It states "the Select-o-matic 6-way 4-pole switch, here´s how it works": Pole 1 -- C 1 2 3 4 5 6 Pole 2 -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 C Pole 3 -- C 1 2 3 4 5 6 Pole 4 -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 C Please ask for more information.... Ideally I would like all parallel, series positions, both for in phase and out of phase. Bear in mind restricted to mounting shallow slide switches on back and two toggles on front. Does a strat 5 way in a toggle/rotation switch exist? Like that I could hook it up like my 'strat lovers strat'. One '5 way' a 4PDT for flipping neck and bridge for purposes of the three DPDT controls, plus 3 DPDT (bridge in series, bridge phase, add neck in parallel) and another DPDT for strangle or tone cap switching.
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 2, 2012 4:07:47 GMT -5
Hi guys,
Finally got around to trying to re-jig my Dano 12 string hodad for series/parallel/phase change and possible tone cap switching and strangle cap switching.
It was a 3PDT switch mounted on the front for 'blow' and the famous 'selectomatic' plus 100k vol/1M tone concentric pots. On the back I cut a rectangle of tele one ply for a new cover and cut 4 slots for mini sliders (I cant put in a fifth due to the pots being only a few mm under the cover, and the others can have as little as 1.5cm clearance.)
The things is even though I spilled superglue on the back and put in a long scratch next to the cover (ouch!) I don't want to cannibalise it too much.
I had been trying to switch sources going to the selectomatic which is configured for series in order to 'fool it' into giving me parallel e.g. swapping middle hot for ground and viceversa so across the first two lugs are bridge/middle grounds and bridge/middle hot for bridge/middle parallel. Only doing it this way the way the selectomatic is connected put the neck in parallel too. In fact I think the middle pup is reversed (this is an RWRP, weaker GFS compared to the other original danos). Now I could change the two phase on/on switches to be on/off/on for in/off/out of phase to take the neck out to make just bridge/middle in parallel although I'm still out of phase I believe and the neck would be left hanging? This would give me B+N in number 6 position and M+N in number 2 position. (Selectomatic: 6 B, 5 BXM, 4 M, 3 MXN, 2 N, 1 BXN.)
Another idea was to 'create' the parallel conditions at the even lugs of the selectomatic, but that would seem to be more difficult to make the selectomatic give parallel 'positions'.
I did think about wiring a switch to switch between output of the selectomatic (for series) and the three in/off/out (of phase) for the three pups. Would that work? Or would various unwanted connections still be made at the 'series' or selectomatic end?
I was thinking of leaving the blow and selectomatic switches if possible, or at the very least remove them and install toggles and/or rotary switches that will give me pickup connections rather than having to constantly fiddle with switches on the back of the guitar to select combos. That is to say have the principle controls on the front.
In the worst case I can just wire for a strangle/neck phase/bridge phase/tone cap switch although switching from 0.1 to 0.047 to 0.033 (0.1 and 0.047 on an on/off/on) does not seem to change much. In fact, the tone pot seems to do little until it is down to 3 or 2. I thought about a 0.1/0.022 on that switch but that would only give 0.1/0.022/0.018, redundancy? What else could I do with that spare switch? Have a I got the tone/vol pots wired right, I havent change the configuration since I bought it, and they seem wired as stock with the hot wire going to the centre lug of the tone pot which is linked to the hot lug of the volume pot.
Any ideas? I seemed to have burned myself out on this, again! :-)
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Post by dannyhill on Jul 25, 2012 7:43:27 GMT -5
Ooops too late. I already made up the first. Thanks guys anyway. For the record I hear no popping.
D
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Post by dannyhill on Jul 21, 2012 9:04:25 GMT -5
You can switch a cap in and out between it and the jack. With a 0.003uF you get the 'strangle' or bass cut. The lugs I referred to were for the SPDT. Any clearer?
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Post by dannyhill on Jul 20, 2012 11:27:09 GMT -5
Thanks Newey! Final question :-) I seem to have a problem with popping in Gibson switches, strangle switches and tone cap switching. What is the general rule to avoid it without resorting to MOhm resistors? For example if I wire a SPDT to switch a cap in/out of series from 3 way gibson pup selector to hot on jack should the jack connection go on the centre lug or one of the outer lugs? My intuition says the latter, that way the 3 way connection, which if you trace all the way back to ground, will always be in the circuit. ?
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Post by dannyhill on Jul 19, 2012 9:39:09 GMT -5
I would have to double the insurance coverage on the guitar then By the way I usually connect my caps (tone and strangle) with DPDTs which means the caps are connected in a bypass as supposed to a shunt. This means when I switch from one to the other...poptastic! I could put a 1MOhm resistor to ground on the side closer to ground. Or should I always wire them so they have one side wired together i.e. configure in SPDT instead of DPDT? Thanks! D
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Post by dannyhill on Jul 19, 2012 6:41:18 GMT -5
Excellent! Thanks for that ReTread. Incidentally, I also had in mind to use a 4PDT/4P3T on on on for switching simultaneously the two separate pairs of cap, one for a parallel wiring of pups and one for series wiring of pups. I would then jumper the two center lugs on each side of the throw. I prefer this than using two separate DPDT on on on toggles as I only have room for two more toggle switches and wanted one to be for a strangle. Are 4PDT/4P3T on on on toggles common? I have only seen some pricey ones on Ebay with different toggle tops to the usual toggles. Cheers, DH
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Post by dannyhill on Jul 19, 2012 5:14:03 GMT -5
Hi guys, You seem to be using DPDT on-on-on switches of 'type D' as seen here: www.1728.org/guitar.htmThese are supposed to be the more unusual variant of 'type C' which is what I am looking for but for the life of me cannot find them. I wanted to attach two tone caps so I get either cap 1, both in parallel (sum of both), or cap2. Where can these be found? Alternatively, instead of using them to join each of the two end poles I could join one leg of each and attach to the tone pot lug and then either add jumpers across each the switch or diagonally criss-cross either the LHS with centre lugs or RHS and centre lugs. Would that work? Or should I be opening a new thread? Cheers, DH
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Post by dannyhill on Jul 13, 2012 4:25:40 GMT -5
Hi guys,
I'm working on an archtop and have the strangle cap AFTER the 3 way toggle before the jack. I wired the resistor before the cap and to the ground, but it still pops. I have also always had a bassy boomy noise at mid to high gain. Should the resistor be connected to the cap and to ground AFTER the cap, i.e. on the side connected to the jack? Would that get rid of some of that bassy boomy noise? Thanks!
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