1457 new build wiring help

[angelodp]

Hello my friends. I will shortly be posting my DC-59 build pics which turned out pretty good. I do need some help and forgive me if this is so basic. I am also putting together a 1457 Silvertone ( Jagger, Knopfler, Beck, Ry Cooder, others ) guitar. I want to wire it a little differently than the original which uses concentric pots, instead I want to go with a single master volume and a single master tone, a three way on/on/on selector toggle, and a mini toggle for phase reversal, and i want the two lipstick pickups in series. I also want to achieve hum canceling when both pickups are selected in series.
I have included a diagram of the components if anyone can offer the correct wiring for this.

[ChrisK]

...mini toggle for phase reversal...

To do phase reversal, a DPDT ON-ON switch must be used. You show a SPDT.

Do you have a DPDT switch?

I also want to achieve hum canceling when both pickups are selected in series

This is only possible if the pickups have opposite magnetic polarity. If the string facing sides of the pickups attract, they are opposite. If they repel, they are not and hum cancellation will not be possible.

Are your pickups of opposite magnetic polarity?

...a three way on/on/on selector toggle...

You show a typical three-terminal LP-style SP3T center-ON switch. This cannot be used for series.

You will need a DP3T ON-ON-ON mini-toggle switch or a 3 pickup LP-style switch (which is also a DP3T ON-ON-ON switch).

[newey]

Angelodp-

An interesting project. However, could you please downsize your image so that it doesn't blow off the page?

Thanks!

[angelodp]

Ok, sorry... re-sized. Yes they are reverse polarity pickups, and i will get the correct toggles to do the job. Any advice on wiring this up please.

best... you all rock

ange

[angelodp]

here are a few pics. I will do a larger expose soon with the various stages. The DC-59 has an Oak neck....the 1457 Birch!!

[ChrisK]

I need to know which type of switch will be used for the pickup selector (LP-style 3 pickup switch or DP3T ON-ON-ON).

A. DP3T ON-ON-ON mini-toggle switch #1223 or #1224.


or


B. 3 pickup LP-style switch

[angelodp]

Hi Chris, i am going with the LP type.

ange

[angelodp]

Chris ... i have this type of threeway switch... can i go with this?? oops never mind it does not work as a three way .... i will use the LP type

[angelodp]

Ok here is he revised layout with proper components...

[D2o]

Ok here is he revised layout with proper components...

Hi Ange,

Sounds like Chris has you covered, but out of curiosity, have you seen this?

What is the 0.1 uF 100V cap for - is it the DC blocking cap, or is it that value because of the 1 meg volume pot or something?

If it's a DC blocking cap, then - given the intended purpose - I am not comfortable with that capacitor value. Can you not get a 400V (or higher) capacitor?

D2o

[ashcatlt]

To reiterate what ChrisK said, the phase switch must have 2 poles to work.

For the pickup selection you're talking about, you first need to decide whether you want the possibility of a little extra noise from leaving one pickup hanging from hot when it's not selected, or would you prefer the possibility of a little loss of treble from shunting across that unused coil? Or would you prefer to avoid either of these scenarios? In any case, the switch you've pictured ain't gonna work.

If you're willing to take the possible tone loss from shunting in both single positions, you can do it with an SPDT (center Off). With a DP3T (that's 2 poles and 3 throws, like a Tele/Strat switch, or the Gibson one for 3 pickups, should have a total of 8 lugs) you can accomplish either the hanging hot or shunting of just one coil. If you'd prefer to actually disconnect the unused coil altogether (in both single positions) you'll need a 4P3T.

[angelodp]

Ok sorry my duh.... I would like to avoid loss of treble or noise in the circuit. How did the original Dano do it .... My 1457 with concentric is so quiet. Thats the original switch...with the concentric pots. i don't want to go with the concentric post on his build, but otherwise i want to keep to the spirit of the original...with the addition of the phase reversal.... or should I just omit the phase reversal...as it would be a noisy choice correct ??

[ChrisK]

Were the original pickups on the 1457 selected in series?

If so, that original switch may well be a SPDT (center OFF) as ash mentions, and it can then be reused.

For a simple test, set the switch to the middle (both pickups on) position. Measure the resistance from the center terminal to each side terminal.

If it is very near zero (perhaps 5 Ohms or less) to both end terminals, it is for parallel selection (SPDT center ON), and if it is over 1K or so to both end terminals, it is for series selection (SPDT center OFF). (Make sure that the volume controls are all the way up for this test.)

As ash mentions, there will be some little loss of treble from shunting across that unused coil, but you mention that you really liked the way that it sounded as it is, so if it is a shorting switch (SPDT center OFF) it should sound nearly identical to the way that you like.

Well, it will be different since you are using different pickups.

You may want to take the approach of implementing the new wiring using the original pickups to verify things, and then just change the pickups.

Check this out, we're almost there.


Now, let me further complicate things. If you want to keep things stock looking, push pull pots can be used for the master volume and master tone.

The original switch that might select the pickups in parallel (or the new one that you show that likely does) could be used to select the pickups in parallel.

The master tone push pull switch could reverse the phase of one pickup.

The master volume push pull switch could do an overriding series selection regardless of the LP-style selector switch.

The 1457 would appear to be stock, but have two "stealth" switches for a total of four modes and six pickup combinations.

[angelodp]

Hi Chris. I am certain that the original guitar ( the guts shown ) has a series connection. The switch that I showed ( the rectangular metal one ) has a center off position. I don't understand how you can have both pickups on with that sort of a switch. Lest say I jettison the phase toggle idea...yes, gone with that idea and just stick with the single master and single tone pot and two pickups ( which are reverse polarity ) and go for a series connection so I can have either pickup on or both in hum canceling. If that makes sense.

new layout

[angelodp]

Chris, sorry to dither on this. Lets go with the switch i have which is center off.

ok Ange

[ChrisK]

I am certain that the original guitar ( the guts shown ) has a series connection.

Good.

The switch that I showed ( the rectangular metal one ) has a center off position.

Great.

I don't understand how you can have both pickups on with that sort of a switch.

That's ok, I do.

Actually, both pickups are wired in series with the hot wire of the top one going to the volume pot and the return wire of the bottom one going to ground. Without the switch, both pickups are always on.

The switch will have one end terminal connected to the volume pot, and the other end terminal connected to ground. The center terminal will be connected to the connection between the two pickups.

In the center position, nothing is connected. When switched to either end position, one or the other pickup is shorted. This is perfectly safe and will have no detrimental effect (as it didn't have in the original guitar).

Let's say I jettison the phase toggle idea...

Ok, you can always add it with a push pull pot later. Series Out-of-Phase is an interesting sound whereas Parallel Out-of-Phase is weak and very thin sounding unless a 1/2 Out-of-Phase capacitor is used (which I would have included had you wanted a phase switch).

yes, gone with that idea and just stick with the single master and single tone pot and two pickups ( which are reverse polarity ) and go for a series connection so I can have either pickup on or both in hum canceling. If that makes sense.

Ok, I'm traveling tonight so I won't look at this until sometime tomorrow at the earliest.

I will include the phase switch design anyway, it can always be not wired.

[angelodp]

Super.... many thanks ..... can the out of phase series be hum canceling ?? My guess is no?

What cap do you recommend for the tone or volume??

Here is what was on the original design.


best Ange

[newey]

can the out of phase series be hum canceling ??

If one pickup is RWRP with respect to the other (as you indicate it is), I believe there will be some hum-canceling effect in OOP, whether in series or parallel.

EDIT: As far as cap values go, I found this Dano schematic for a single pickup, which uses 1MΩ pots for both vol and tone, and has a "tone switch" to select either a .01 or a .1 cap (I assume µfd). Note also the 27K resistor with the .01 µfd cap.



So, there's the range Dano was using with this type of lipstick pup.

BTW, my recent white Strat build (posted in the gallery) uses a single GFS dual-lipstick HB. It is very simply wired w/ a V and T, with a push/pull on the V pot for series/parallel between the 2 coils. I like the tone quite a bit, it's bright and jangly with the pots at "10", backing off the tone pot a bit gives a nice clean jazzy-type sound. It's a fairly low output pickup, but it seems to drive the gain channel on my amp better than some of my other guitars with beefier pickups. I think these just give a more useable gain further into the gain knob.

[angelodp]

awesome info... i have a single pickup 59 ( vintage ) dano with that exact setup. And yes I concur that these pickups are great on overdrive. the lower value seems to draw a more " toney response " on my Dlite "Dumblesque amp. Here is a shot of the faraday box ready for wiring if it helps Chris out.

best Ange

[ashcatlt]

Dec 2, 2008 18:50:52 GMT -5 angelodp said:

can the out of phase series be hum canceling ?? My guess is no?

Your guess is correct. If it's humcancelling when wired "normal" throwing one pickup out of phase will cancel this effect when both pickups are selected.

The noise cancellation happens because the noise signal is induced in one pickup "moves the opposite direction" from that in the other.

-1 + 1 = 0

If you invert either of these, you'll find that they end up moving the same direction again.

(-1*-1) + 1 = 1 + 1 = 2
-1 + (-1 * 1) = -1 - 1 = -2

0 equals neither 2 nor -2 (at least not in this universe). You're not likely to get absolutely no noise, partly because in this universe the two coils cannot occupy the exact same physical space at the same time. Partly becuase the coils will not be exactly the same. Partly also because some of the noise you get out of a guitar comes from elsewhere.

In most cases, though, only the absolute value really matters.

|2| = |-2|

So the noise will sound the same no matter which pickup is inverted, and should be about twice as loud as either pickup individually.

ChrisK told you how to wire it with the original center off switch. The original wiring you posted does exactly the same thing, except it's got pots between the pickups and the switch. I'll see what I can wip up here in a couplefew minutes.

[angelodp]

cool, by the by... the pot closest to the switch is 1 meg vol ok

ange

[ashcatlt]

Okay. I'm pretty sure these pots are 1M to help maintain some treble response. Both the shorting of the unused coils and (especially) the series connection are likely to cause a noticeable decrease in the response at higher frequencies.

Anyway, this isn't pretty, but I'm pretty sure it will select the neck pickup when the switch is flipped upward. If not, just turn the switch itself (maybe leave some slack to the wires) until it makes sense to you. I also think I've got the knobs turning the right way. If that's wrong, it's a simple fix, but does require resoldering.

This one without the phase switch:

And this one with:

[angelodp]

Wow, thanks for the quick reply. My switch has a forth tab ... ground tab I think... its just opposite the center tab... what do i do with that ??



Thanks Ange

[ashcatlt]

That's to ground the metal case of the switch for shielding purposes. Assuming this case contacts your "faraday cage" (and assuming this is, in fact conductive) you don't have to do anything with it. You could, however, connect it to any ground point you'd like. I've collected most of them at the volume pot.

[angelodp]

Here is another variation. I am hoping Chris will add his version as well.

best ange

[angelodp]

Many thanks for your consideration and help on this project. Here is where i think i have landed on this. I decided on a .022 cap instead of the .1 in the original. I have a more or less star grounding to the volume pot. Please do chime in if this looks ok or not!!

best ange

[pete12345]

If you're shielding the guitar, you don't need the connection to the back of the tone pot- it will be grounded by the shielding. So you should connect the left terminal of the tone pot directly to your star ground.

I've also noticed you show the capacitor going to the output side of the volume pot. Usual practice is to connect it to the pickup side (i.e right terminal rather than center terminal) It will work in this configuration, but I'm not sure whether the tone will stay the same as the volume is turned down.

Pete

[angelodp]

Ok, how are we looking here, and thanks Pete. By the way the other side of this little box is copper foil and it will shield the guts and the components will all make continuity through the threads touching the copper.

[ChrisK]

I am hoping Chris will add his version as well.

Why, my (ground) work here is done!

[pete12345]

All's good ;D Nice idea with the shielding box too, I wouldn't have thought of that one. I think your method of showing wiring diagrams is actually much clearer in this case that a schematic would be Not sure about this method for 'nutzoid schemes' though...