Stealth tele with everything

[pete12345]

This is a quick one which might be of interest. It gives you all possible combinations of 2 single coil pickups without changing the appearance of a tele. It would also work on any other 2 pickup guitar, using either a fender-style blade switch or a 3-way rotary.



With both pots pushed in, it functions almost exactly as a stock telecaster- with the exception of the tone control which I'll come to later. Pull up the volume pot, and the middle position changes from parallel to series. Pull up the tone and the middle position becomes out of phase.

The tone pot is a last-minute addition. It has no effect when 'bridge only' is selected, so you can go straight to a solo position with no lost highs. In the 'neck only' and 'neck parallel with bridge' it acts as a master tone, and in the series setting it acts only on the neck pickup, whilst also allowing highs from the bridge pickup to bleed through. I've found this type of arrangement to be quite interesting in out-of-phase selections as well. If you wanted, you could have a master tone instead.

I realise the T-riffic mod does all this with only one switch, but I personally prefer 3-way switches to 5-ways (only one in between position to find) and I think the operation with push/pulls is fairly logical. Using ordinary toggle switches between the volume and tone knobs could also work well.

Pete

[newey]

Pete- +1 for that one, a nice logical control layout.

Have you built this?

[pete12345]

Alas no- though it's filed for when I get a tele ;D

EDIT: I think this circuit would also be adaptable to H-H guitars as well. On a Les Paul, I can envisage the controls being changed to a single master volume and a tone control for each pickup. The fourth pot would be replaced by a 3-way rotary switch. The series/parallel switch would be a push/pull on the volume, with the phase switch where the original pickup switch went (or the other way round, whichever is easier.) This leaves the tone pots free for splitting the humbuckers or series/parallel within each pickup.

[norumba]

i like the concept! for those of us whove never held a soldering iron, though, its a little hard to visualize *how* i would solder exactly what to what... any way a more user friendly wiring diagram could be drawn up?

[newey]

Norumba-

Can do, but a diagram may take me a week or so to get to. So you may have to be a bit patient, unless someone else jumps in.

Would you want the split coil and/or intra-pickup series/parallel options that Pete mentions, or just the basic scheme he outlines?

Are you considering this for the same HSH guitar you were asking about in the other thread? Or, is this a for a different project?

If it's for a HH guitar, something similar to the Jimmy Page mod might fit your bill. Pete's suggested scheme features a 3-way rotary switch, which may make for more logical switching than all the push/pull pots used in the JP scheme.

There are several versions of the JP scheme floating hereabouts, and others elsewhere on the web.

[norumba]

Hi Newey,

no , this is for a separate project, for a regular 2 p.u. single coil Tele setup. My only requested mod to Pete's offering would be to not have the tone pot disabled on the bridge pickup --- playing with the tone circuit on the bridge pickup of a Tele is pretty key to a Tele's versatility.

i have been eyeing some of the Jimmy Page wiring posts as well for my LP style (thats a third project im trying to undertake, lol, but down the road, as that one isnt getting played a lot these days). those are some very cool ideas in there. Huge versatility and a really clean look.

thanks!

[sumgai]

Long time members here will espy that Pete has "Nutzed" an earlier design, presented some time ago, that used a Tele 4-way switch to get the series/parallel options. Pete's stance is that the fewer the number of potential switch positions, the easier the switch is to operate reliably when in the heat of the performance.

I'm up for that, because that's what this place is all about, eh?

But for those who prefer fewer switches (and that usually includes me), the original schematic has appeared in other threads here, but is now unavailable, sorry to say. (My old host (filecabin.com) went the way of the dodo bird, and I haven't uploaded it to my photobucket account..... yet.) If anyone wants to see that version, you need only ask.


~!~!~!~!~
norumba,

The following is in no way any kind of chastisement, OK? It's only an observation, but it's based on very long experience, and it's shared pretty universally amongst the engineering and design community.

A schematic is meant, on purpose, to divorce the theoretical electrical action from the mechanical/physical aspects of a product. By doing so, one can see what's happening (or what's supposed to happen ) without regard to how or where the items are mounted. This allows one to concentrate on either finding a trouble spot (by applying theory, making measurements, etc.), or making mods to introduce other/different effects. Additionally, schematics are almost universal in their presentation. With few exceptions, an Australian designer can draw a circuit that will be understood in Hong Kong, Germany and Zimbabwe. Such would be difficult to muster, if the draftsman also inserted symbols regarding what kind of components, where they go, how to run the wires, etc.

To put it another way, a schematic lets the product assembler choose the actual components to put together. If a switch is called for that has two positions, the builder can choose a push-pull (built on to the underside of a pot), a toggle, a rotary, a slide, or a push-push. They all do the same job electrically, but the operation is not spelled out on the schematic for this very reason. All too often, the designer is not the builder, and if one tries to "force" his vision on the other, things get ugly, real fast.

Now, here it gets 'sticky'. I want you to understand that we'll do whatever we can, and whatever it takes, to make sure our new members here succeed in their projects. But..... we also want you to learn some of the basics of our craft, and if we just hand over a simple drawing that says "put tab A in slot B", or "solder the red wire to the center terminal...", you don't learn very much at all, do you? In other words, how you gonna get all Nutty if all you can do is solder wires together, without understanding at least the basics of why those two particular wires are being soldered together? Capish?

It's a learning experience, man, and if you remember just one thing from this post, let it be this:

No one here was born knowing all this crud - we each and every one of us had to learn it the hard way, just like you. The only difference between you and us is that we just got interested before you did, that's all. Now it's your turn, and we'll pull you along the road in a stable way so that you don't stumble (as in, we don't want you to pull a wiring no-no that might cause damage to your axe, or harm to yourself!), until you're flapping your wings all by yourself. Believe me, it'll happen sooner or later, so the only thing is, can we make it fun for you along the way? ;D

Now, that wasn't so bad, was it? And as it happens, I am not the one to put together wiring diagrams (what you're asking for), I completely suck at that. However, several other members here are good at it, so just sit tight and hang on, I'm sure that someone will drop a drawing in this thread for you, complete with explanations.

HTH




sumgai


Oh, mama ma bicho, I forgot (but not before signing off)....

Hi, and to the NutzHouse!

[newey]

Norumba-

SG said it better than I could have. I was simply going to ask you if you could follow the schematic!

OK, so it's Pete's original scheme for a Tele, with 2 SCs that your after- except you want the tone control for the bridge.

There may be several diagrams around here already that accomplish this, probably no need to reinvent the wheel, so to speak. I'll poke around in the archives and see what I can find.

EDIT: I don't know what mod SG was referring to using a 4-way Tele switch (The "Baja Tele" switch). Pete12345 mentioned in his original post here that the "T-riffic" mod does everything his does, but using a 5-way switch which Pete disliked.

The T-riffic mod is from the original Guitarnuts site:



This uses a "superswitch" to get the combos. While you may not (like Pete) want to use a 5-way switch, there is a detailed discussion in that link about the modifications needed to the std. Tele neck pickup in order to avoid noise in the series settings. If you are using a regular Tele neck pickup, you will want to pay attention to that discussion.

[gumbo]

...it's actually quite easy if you hold the Australian wiring diagram up the other way.....

[norumba]

Hi all,

thanks for everybody's help and warm welcome!

I in no way feel chastised, Sumgai, and I totally understand where you're coming from. And, im willing to learn! I've seen some very clear and 'newbie friendly' diagrams on other threads here in the past few days, and im grateful for those, as that helps folks like us get started, helps me get head around these concepts. And what i cant tackle myself i can certainly share or pass on to a more experienced guitar tech, but i do want to get my feet wet.

But at this point in my development, I don't know how to read a schematic at all, so i'll check on some of your resources or elsewhere on the net for "Schematic Reading 101" and dive in. I'd still be grateful for an eventual diagram on this circuit, however, as it could be useful as a learning tool to compare the diagram and circuit.

Thanks, and i'll see what i can learn!

[newey]

OK, I had some time to kill at the airport, so I gave a go at a diagram. I used different color wiring to hopefully make it easier to read, but it's not great, legibility-wise. It's tough to draw with a laptop in your lap!

Anyway, please let someone check this to be sure it's OK before you start wiring.

[sumgai]

norumba,

newey's translation-fu is strong! ;D  His drawing-fu is...... (pick one: )

It could be a lot cleaner, but all the connections are in their proper places. Does that help you to see where everything goes?




sumgai

[norumba]

Thanks.... I *think* i follow it. im reading online about basic wiring so i have a better understanding of what im seeing. Id like to knwow aht im doing, rather than just following the guide without some idea of how it works and why.

if i feel brave enough, this might be my perfect starting project. guess i better buy a soldering iron now

[newey]

SG said:

newey's translation-fu is strong! ;D His drawing-fu is...... (pick one: )

I pick !

As I said, I was operating with some serious limitations at the time. . .

Norumba-

As far as "how it works", let's add a verbal explanation which may help you follow the diagram.

First, the diagram is drawn directly from Pete schematic except that mine has a master tone control, instead of Pete's neck-only tone. If you wanted tone only on the bridge, you would wire the tone control "across" the bridge pickup before any of the switching, just as Pete shows it across the neck pup.

As it is, the bridge pickup is wired first to the tone control's DPDT p/p pot switch. This switches the phase of the bridge pickup.

Both pups "-" connections go to the 3-way Tele switch's 2 common poles, the bridge's going through the phase switch first.

The Vol pot's series/parallel switch is wired off of the #2 lugs of the Tele switch, i.e., the middle position.

See if you can trace the signalflow through the various switch positions,that will aid understanding. Compare it to the schematic, keeping in mind that the schematis doesn't show physical locations of things, just their connections. In the schematic, each switch is shown cut in half, so to speak. The dotted lines indicate that the 2 halves are part of the same switch.

[norumba]

Thanks very much, Newey! i'll print this out so i can study them side by side....

[newey]

You might also try redrawing my crude diagram so it is clearer, you'll learn it better taking "pen in hand", so to speak, than just staring at it.

[sumgai]

Mar 23, 2010 14:42:31 GMT -5 newey said:

You might also try redrawing my crude diagram so it is clearer, you'll learn it better taking "pen in hand", so to speak, than just staring at it.

Wise suggesstion! Earns a +1 right there. ;D

[norumba]

thanks, will give that a shot over the weekend!

[ChristoMephisto]

I agree with the three way switch over the five way, easier to get to the pup selection you want, faster too

Had a tele wired with a three way, bridge/parallel/series (b>n), with a phase switch on the tone pot. The neck was in series with a .01 cap when OoP, a la Bill Lawrence
Also revered the control plate so the pup selector and the tone/phase switch are next to each other instead of either end

[dannyhill]

Hi,

Old thread I know.
Anyone still reading this?
Newey, I would like to wire my tele up so, but how can switch it around so the neck is placed in and out of phase? Is it just a question of swapping the + connections over from the bridge to neck and viceversa, and similarly for the - connections?
Thanks in advance.

Daniel

[newey]

Well, when you post to any thread it moves it to the top of the pile once again, so yes, we're still reading it!

But, where are my manners? Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

The solution is even easier than you suspect. Just flip the diagram vertically and rename the bridge pickup as the neck pickup, and vice versa. Voilá!

Now, you do understand that there will be absolutely no difference in tone regardless of which pickup is chosen for the phase reversal? The only way it might matter would be if this guitar had more than 2 pickups.

Bridge OOP with the neck is identical to neck OOP with bridge. A pickup cannot be "Out of phase with itself", it can only be OOP with reference to something else (here, with respect to another pickup.) The OOP setting only makes a difference in the center switch position, where both pickups are selected.

On a two-pickup guitar, therefore, there is only one out-of-phase option to be had and it matters not which pickup gets the switch.

Somewhere around here, we had a tutorial on what phasing is and how it works, I'll link you to it if I can find it. But basically, each pickup produces a range of frequencies that differ from the other, the differences being a function of their position along the string and their individual makeup/composition.

When one pickup is placed OOP with respect to the other, those frequencies which are common to both pickups cancel each other out, leaving only the frequencies unique to the pickups individually.

If the 2 pickups in question are identical in construction and/or closer together along the string, more frequencies will be common to both and more cancellation will occur. With dissimilar coils spaced farther apart, less cancellation will occur.

More cancellation equates to a lower volume and "tinnier" sound. Think: Pink Floyd's "radio tuner" intro to the song "Wish You Were Here".

Less cancellation generally provides a more useful sound, although tastes vary of course. The great Peter Green of (early) Fleetwood Mac famously had his LP permanently wired OOP in the center switch position, this is the so-called "Peter Green Mod", one of the earliest guitar mods. More often nowadays, a switch is used to select between in/out of phase operation, which is what we have here.

Hope that all helps.

[4real]

I put an OoP on my tele and the effect can be heard here on that guitar at 3:00 (funky chord solo) if you want to hear the effect...

www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=869409

My guitar has dissimilar pups though, but if the cancellation is too extreme, you can do the HOoP thing (half out of phase) with the addition of a cap in the phase switch which worked out really well in my strat.

It does not matter which pup is OoP, I tend to favour phasing the neck pup on my guitars, but the effect is the same and can only be heard when both pups are selected.

welcome

[dannyhill]

Hi Newey,

Many thanks. Sorry for replying late, I didn't get an email alerting me to a reply.
Sound wise, yes, of course they will be same...except in my case with a two lead humbucker case single coil in the bridge I will get a lot of noise once the poles go hot on phase reversal. In the neck I can put a cover on the PUP and ground that so I can lift the negative lead is lifted above ground. I either picked that up on guitar nuts or deaf-eddie's page.

Cheers,

Daniel

[newey]

Danny-

Well then, you have the solution in hand, as above.

Although I'm not sure what you mean by "the poles go hot", the pole pieces are ordinarily hot, and usually it's the cover that needs to be un-grounded when flipping such a pickup.

[sumgai]

newey and danny,

Actually, if anything, the pole pieces themselves are never supposed to be connected to anything - they're supposed to remain neutral, for the sake of safety, if nothing else.

However, in many cases, if not most, screw pole pieces of a Humbucker are screwed directly into the metal frame, and when that's grounded, then too are the pole pieces. Reversing the wiring of a two-wire Humbucker, one that has no shielding braid, would then turn those poles "hot". Not a bad thing, unless one is a finger picker with unusually deep strokes, right over the pup itself. If the Hummer is wired with a braided shield, no matter how many signal wires are present, then this should not be a problem.

And for dannyhill....... As usual:

Hi, and to the NutzHouse!


HTH






sumgai

[dannyhill]

Sleep. what's that?
I followed what you said Newey, and just wired them up, reading neck for bridge PUP and vice-versa.
The only thing is that ny 3 way doesn't look like yours, mine has all 7 contacts in a row.
Anyway first I had the ground and hot the wrong way around at the jack, here I had only the amp hum (same if guitar plugged in or not) but the hum got a lot worse anytime I touched a metal part. Soldered the jack the other way around and now the hum doesnt get worse when I tough metal. Only I still don't have any sound from the PUPs! Ground loops? Bad soldering? Contacts mixed up???
Help guys!!!!!!

Cheers,

Danny
PS Thanks for the waram welcome and help so far.

[newey]

DH-

It's not a ground loop. Bad solder joint is certainly possible. But I suspect the problem lies in your translation of the diagram to your 7-lug switch

Can you post a photo of the switch and its wiring? We'll need a well-focused close up.

Do you have a multimeter?

[dannyhill]

Hi Newey,

Thanks for taking an interest.
I realised last night after my last post that I had switched half way through soldering between black and white wiring for +ve and -ve so I'm going to go through it again. Little things like the bridge braiding moving all over the place and shorting out stuff probably doesn't help.
But I suspect its like you say, I have translated your diagram wrong.
Incidentally in the neck I have a strat (GFS fatbody) which I have connected the base via the screw hole to the cavity ground. I couldnt understand why I saw a tiny copper wire on sides soldered to the base chasis of the PUP (metal) from where the leads to +ve and -ve seem to come from but they neither have continuity with the bridge chasis. The regular tele necks do that via a ground jumper to the -ve side with the covers having continuity with the case where they clip onto them.
Here are the photos....time to warm the soldering iron.






Big enough?
Cheers,

Danny

[dannyhill]

OK, re-worked the connections. Now I have PUPs working in series! Both in phase and out of phase, but only when neck position of switch, and volume pot out and tone pot in or out.
Doh!

D

[newey]

DH:

First off, you need to downsize those photos substantilly, and they are too wide and cause us to have to scroll horizontally. As a result, I can't tell a thing from the photos since I can't see it all at once.

In lieu of the photos, if you have 7 lugs in a row on the switch, please describe what is wired to the centermost lug- the one with 3 lugs to each side of it. Then describe the wiring to the right and left of the center lug. Please use the following ordering of the 7 lugs:

3-2-1-P-3-2-1