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Post by JohnH on Oct 17, 2011 6:29:11 GMT -5
I had a play again with the spreadsheet, and I think the likely values would be either 120k or 150k, in parallel with 1nF or 0.82nF. If I had to pick one combo right now, Id reckon the pairing 1nF and 120k. though there wont be much difference within those ranges. This assumes you have a standard Strat type of SSS set up.
cheers
John
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s151669
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Post by s151669 on Nov 19, 2011 11:04:25 GMT -5
So, how about the frequency response graph without tone control ? I have been fan of 50's wiring so far (and the frequency response graph says just why!) , but since I really don't use the tone controls for anything...
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Post by JohnH on Nov 19, 2011 14:46:29 GMT -5
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s151669
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Post by s151669 on Nov 24, 2011 11:03:33 GMT -5
Actually, I have SG. I always tought I wanted a LP but after trying several ones, I fell in love with SG. I also have the 50's wiring in a 93 Squier Strat and in a korean PRS hollowbody copy. So, I finally had some time to play with the spreadsheet. So far, following has been found out: Having tone control at 10 does not differ or differs _very slightly_ from not having tone control. I always tought that removing the tone sucker should make more difference. Another thing, cable does play very significant role. In home, when playing with a 20ft cord, there was tolerable treble loss in halfway settings. In rehearsals, however, everything turned to mud. I always figured it was about band context, but now it seems that having the 20ft cord, pedal board with 3 true bybass boxes and yet another 10ft of cord from pedal board to amp makes all the difference. So, things to concider: - shorter cable to pedalboard - I'm not going too far from it anyway, since I need to do backup vocals too. - active buffer - Till variety - eliminate pedals altogether, control gain from guitar's volume pot. Short cord of course. Next rehearsals are at Sunday evening, let's see and hear how things work out. Edit: I did cut my 20ft cord to roughly 8 ft and 12 ft sections, and tried the shorter one at home. As usual, I did not make any recordings whatsoever to check whether things actually changed, but it appears that treble response is now way up regardless of volume pot position. And imagine, for about 20 years I have thought that volume pot is quite useless and longer cord is better as it allows you to walk away from the amp. Shame on me  |
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Post by JohnH on Nov 24, 2011 14:33:53 GMT -5
Thats great, those are exactly the same conclusions that I reached.
One non-tru-bypas pedal in your chain, like a Boss tuner pedal at the start, with a 10'cord to the guitar, can sort out your tone. After the buffered pedal, the cords can be long with negligible effect on tone
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Dec 2, 2011 10:46:09 GMT -5
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Post by JohnH on Dec 2, 2011 15:09:19 GMT -5
Hi tw0409
I cant see the images (I think you have to be logged into LPF) but it sounds like the same idea as discussed here at replies 9 and 10. If you try it, let us know what you think - it doesnt seem to need new parts.
J
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Dec 2, 2011 16:51:31 GMT -5
Hi tw0409 I cant see the images (I think you have to be logged into LPF) but it sounds like the same idea as discussed here at replies 9 and 10. If you try it, let us know what you think - it doesnt seem to need new parts. J J, you are right, they are the same! I am looking for a cap/resistor combo that can be used with 3 single-coil size humbuckers and 250K vol/tone pots. Do you have any suggestion for this particular setup? Also, I notice one of the consensus on parallel cap/resistor TB is that it will mess up the taper of the pot. How exactly will it do to the taper? (it seems like a bearable one to me because everyone is still doing it) Thanks |
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Post by JohnH on Dec 2, 2011 17:10:07 GMT -5
Hi tw0409 I cant see the images (I think you have to be logged into LPF) but it sounds like the same idea as discussed here at replies 9 and 10. If you try it, let us know what you think - it doesnt seem to need new parts. J J, you are right, they are the same! I am looking for a cap/resistor combo that can be used with 3 single-coil size humbuckers and 250K vol/tone pots. Do you have any suggestion for this particular setup? Also, I notice one of the consensus on parallel cap/resistor TB is that it will mess up the taper of the pot. How exactly will it do to the taper? (it seems like a bearable one to me because everyone is still doing it) Thanks Its best chosen by ear, but according to graphs etc, I'd say either 150k/0.82nF or 120k/1nF. It depends on your pickups. If you try this, let us know what you think. The pot taper becomes flatter with the parallel TB circuits, so an audio pot moves about halfway to acting like a linear pot. I find that to be a very nice usable taper and I prefer it to a normal audio pot, but it depends what you want J |
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Post by thetragichero on Dec 2, 2011 17:36:29 GMT -5
i did the dual gang treble bleed on the most recent beater strat i threw together and it works great!
as always, you're an asset to the community!
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Dec 2, 2011 17:53:43 GMT -5
I will be using JBJr in the bridge, DM cruiser in the middle and lil 59 in the neck. I think I will give both combo a try.
Thanks man!
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Mar 4, 2012 0:53:47 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 6, 2012 12:36:37 GMT -5
OK, I know we've tossed this idea around a little bit here, but I don't recall any consensus...
The question is, how would you adjust the values for a bass guitar? In particular, a P-Bass.
I'm putting the list together to re-wire the bass and figured I toss this out and see what came back.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by JohnH on Mar 6, 2012 14:25:40 GMT -5
Could work out some suggestions. High treble on a bass seems to be sometimes more important than on a guitar, since bass cabs can have tweeters, and bass EQ pedals have a higher top band. According to this: buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/table.htm..a P-bass pickup can be 6H with 15pF capacitance. Do you know wha the pickup resistance is? and also what pot and cap values would be used? J |
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 6, 2012 16:24:58 GMT -5
It's an old Lawrence Rail P-Bass pickup. I metered it at work when I first got it and it was around 10K. No idea on the Henries. All I ever did with it was a quick screw driver test off of a guitar cable when I got it to make sure it wasn't a paperweight.
Pots will be 250K. It will have it's own volume, but the tone will be shared between all three pickups. The two Jazz style super ferrite pickups will have their own volume, but no treble bleed.
I'm tossing around the idea of using .082uf and .047uf in a Free Woman Tone switch, but that's still up in the air. The super ferrite Peavey pickups can get bright on their own. I recall these old Lawrence pickups as being a bit on the heavy side. Not bad, as this will offset the Peavey's, but I want to keep it from turning to mud on me.
Not much help, but it's all I've got.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by JohnH on Mar 7, 2012 14:35:00 GMT -5
thats fine, the iductance for a P-bass pup is in the table. I put it al in, and it showed almost no resonant peak with a 10' cable. Ill play around with some values. Would it be desirable to keep the tone as constant as possible as you turn down (ie, thats how i usually work these things), or might you prefer a bit more treble when set lower?. Also, is it fair to say that the most common range of reduced volume might be in the range say 0 to -6db? ie, its not like a high-gain guitar where you might want to clean it up bt turning down alot more than that.
John
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 7, 2012 15:53:28 GMT -5
The bass in question has three volume pots. The Peavey pickups are tied together, but the P-Bass pickup is on its own side of the switch. I remember the issues mentioned about treble bleeds being less then efficient with two volume pots tied together, so there is no plan for those two.
I do manipulate the volumes pots on the bass, much like a guitarist would a Blend pot. The tone is common and will normally float between 5-8. This works fine with the two Peavey's, but I am uncertain how this will effect the P-Bass. I can always pull the treble bleed down the road if it makes the bass too bright, but for me it's easier pulling things out then trying to retro fit them once the control cavity is assembled.
The Super Ferrite pickups are slightly hotter then the standard J-Bass pickups, but not to the point where you could call them high output. They can be bright at times, hence the practice of running the tone un-dimed constantly.
Make sense?
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 7, 2012 23:52:36 GMT -5
The tone is common and will normally float between 5-8. Having a tone control after volume control(s) can be a little fussy. Decreasing the volume control makes the tone cut more effective. But you've probably already experienced that and are accustomed to it. I'm not sure what might happen with the tone control after a treble bleed circuit. I wonder if it would be less effective when the volume is reduced. |
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 8, 2012 0:28:16 GMT -5
For reference, here's the original drawing for the bass project:  I haven't redrawn it yet, and the Woman Tone switch will be included, along with a change in cap values, and the treble bleed is coming off the two Jazz pickup volume controls. The original discussion, Why no 3 volume pots in a design? wandered around the subject. After 3-1/2 years I figured I'd get around to actually doing it... It really isn't a complicated design. My whole intent is to allow each pickup to have a separate volume control. After 30 years on the bass it's just the way I'm used to getting the tone I want. I know how the two Peavey pickups react, but I'm not certain how this Lawrence is going to work and play with them. I figured I'd start with some sort of treble bleed and if it doesn't pan out can pull it. Having the treble bleed before the tone controls works out for me on my guitar build. You really have to bury the tone control for it to seriously mud up. I like a darker tone, but I want to preserve some definition. Having it at this point in the circuit works for me. For reference, I've always been one to extensively use both the volume and tone controls. Probably more so since I've started playing with the guitar. They are, for me, a great way to fine tune the tone through overdrives and distortion pedals. The only time I've ever dimed the guitar was in the short demo you might have suffered through when I first finished Project #1. As a practice I've always defaulted the volumes and tones to 7s and moved them up or down depending on how I wanted to blend the tone I was after. I find myself moving across the board much more with the guitar then I ever did with the bass. Hence my interest in the treble bleed values for the bass. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 9, 2012 4:26:03 GMT -5
I had a play around with my latest GuitarFreak version, using your Pbass values. What Ive added to it in this version is the ability to take a snapshot of the tone plot, then have that move up and down along with the live trace so you can see the tone variation independently of the volume variation. Anyway, here is the plot:  The volume control is set for about a 12db volume reduction, and the plot for that is in red. The blue is the tone at full volume, moved down to match the red trace. This is with a 10' cord, and the treble bleed seemed to work very well with the usual values of 150k and 1nF, across a wide range of volume. I tried various other ones and this was as good as any. At this volume level, the tone is matched within 1/2 db from lowest up to about 3000hz, which is a pretty good result. cheers John |
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 9, 2012 8:16:39 GMT -5
So, if I understand you correctly, the values for the cap and resistor are identical for a guitar and a bass. Man, we sure burned a lot bits and bytes in the original thread for no apparent reason then.
Thanks John. Time to put the parts list together.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by JohnH on Mar 9, 2012 15:12:59 GMT -5
Yes its the same. There are lots of different values that you could try if you wished to, and it is not as if there is a critical combination that is the one correct answer, But 150k and 1nF seemed like a good improvement. For comparison, here is a plot with no TB circuit, set to about the same level of volume reduction:  John |
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Post by roadtonever on Mar 9, 2012 15:24:38 GMT -5
Sorry to butt in, but ;D, where can I download Guitarfreak v3?
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Post by JohnH on Mar 9, 2012 15:38:17 GMT -5
Sorry to butt in, but ;D, where can I download Guitarfreak v3? Earlier versions are hereBut I have not uploaded v3 yet, only having written it yesterday. J |
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Post by steadyeddie on May 26, 2013 18:40:01 GMT -5
I've had good success with this circuit. I originally saw it in a Suhr guitar, gotta give credit where credit is due.
It was a 680pf cap in parallel with a 150k resistor. But then that network is put in series with another 120k resistor. I used a 100k series resistor and really like the effect. It sounds very, very consistent all the way down to my ears.
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Post by anechoicmedia on Jun 23, 2017 16:02:29 GMT -5
I know this is a very old thread but I recently stumbled upon this forum and post regarding treble bleed circuits (excellent data here!) and am now working on a guitar with a P-90 in it and wanted to solder in a treble bleed circuit. The P-90 measures 8.6k but not sure of the inductance. I know you are mainly interested in humbuckers but want to know if your parallel treble bleed circuit of 150k and 1nF would work with a single coil? Any info or links to possible answers is appreciated! |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 23, 2017 17:01:32 GMT -5
The thread is old but it's stickied for a reason. It's likely to be referenced often.
John (the threadstarter on this one) is our resident expert for treble bleed.
If he replies and contradicts me, ignore what I say and listen to him.
In my estimation the values for TB components are dictated by two driving forces.
1 - The cable capacitance. (varies with length and quality of cable)
2 - The resistance of the volume pot.
I think any effect due to pickup impedance will be relatively minor, so . . .
If you're using 500k pots, the 1nF cap and 150k resistor should be fine regardless of HB or SC.
If you're using 250k pots, a slightly higher cap value and lower resistance value (120k or 100k) might give slightly better results.
I'd just use 1nF and 150k regardless, and call it a day.
The function of the resistor in parallel with the cap in the treble bleed network is to mitigate the natural 'over-compensation' that would occur in lower volume settings. A parallel treble bleed network won't track perfectly but the standard values are a very useful compromise.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 23, 2017 22:08:08 GMT -5
Its a matter of picking values that keep the tonal range most intact while changing volume. Its a 'best compromise' rather than an absolute, but it works very well. So having tried a few options with testing and analysis, my conclusion is broadly as reTrEaD posted above.
Its not really dependent on the pickups themselves.
It works best for 10' cords. If you use a longer cord, it doesn't really change the optimum values, but the full volume tone then tends to shift to nearer the 10' tone as you roll down, not a bad thing!
The best simple arrangement is a resistor and cap in parallel, and 150k with 1nf works very well. It makes no difference at full volume, and does its best job in the range 5 to 9.
But if your most important low-volume range is less than about 5, a slightly smaller cap is slightly better, say 0.68nF or 0.82nF.
If you use a 250k pot, I suggest the same cap values but reduce the resistor to 120k
The TB circuit slightly reduces the steepness of fall off of the pot taper as you roll down, about half way to being a linear pot - this is also a good thing!
That's about all I know.
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Post by anechoicmedia on Jun 24, 2017 12:22:03 GMT -5
thank you - I keep seeing both 150k and 1.5k resistor values posted but since I see your posts all in the ~100k range of values I'll assume the 1.5k value posts is orders of magnitude off. thanks again! kc |
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moose212
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Post by moose212 on Jul 17, 2017 12:13:15 GMT -5
John - have you ever considered and/or evaluated a treble bleed permutation that includes resistors both in parallel and in series with the TB capacitor? I believe from your initial post that you found that the series option tends to change the shape of the frequency response, but I was wondering if adding a small amount of series resistance might be beneficial. Apparently this is what Fender does in their "tone saver" pre-assembled resistor-capacitor network: www.fender.com/articles/tech-talk/how-a-treble-bleed-circuit-can-affect-your-toneSorry if my language isn't spot on, and apologies for having to ask you - I was trying to do the analysis myself in GuitarFreak but I wasn't sure I was doing everything correctly. Thanks in advance, and for this awesome thread - Peter |
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