A better treble bleed circuit

[JohnH]

Hi carlosg

Sure I can make a plot of those. Need to select what pots and pickup to base it on. Maybe 500k for volume and tone? And what sort of pickup?

[carlosg]

Nov 11, 2022 13:54:29 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Hi carlosg

Sure I can make a plot of those. Need to select what pots and pickup to base it on. Maybe 500k for volume and tone? And what sort of pickup?

Thank You! JohnH

500k vol, 500k tone overwound PAF medium output pickups

I have another question, it's normal that between 7-9 volume sound muddier than 1-6 and 10? I mean Log pot 10-15%

I found EVH wolfgang uses 150pF silver mica. By the way is there a difference between ceramic and silver mica? Some people says mica is less sharp.

[JohnH]

H Carlos

Here are some charts, spread across two plots.

The dashed lines are the full volume tone, for reference.


The lower chart has as follows:

Volume 9, with no TB or 180pF. These are very close and the other cap values in the range would just squeeze in between them, so not plotted. It is indeed a bit duller than at max, and the only way to deal with that, if you wish to, is to have a TB system with a larger cap in it.

Then there's volume 7, with no TB, 82pF, 120pF and 180pF. You can imagine 100pF and 150pF in between, but not plotted

Then Volume 5, with no TB 82pF and 180pF - shows you the range (but that maxes out the plots that are set up in GF to show at once.)


On the upper chart:

Volume 5 again, with no TB, 82, 120 and 180pF
Volume 2.5, with no TB, 82, 120 and 180pF


These TB systems with just a cap can do a good job if targetted at just one setting, but will tend to get steadily brighter as you turn down, and that might be considered OK but its a choice.


The circuit in these plots was two 500k log pots, tone with 0,022 cap, tone pot at max, and a Pearly Gates pickup modelled. I hope that is of interest!

[carlosg]

Great, thank you! It looks like my personal feeling. Turned between 9-7 it make mudier, then it's brighter.
180pF looks top bright.
When I tested I chose 100pF, and it feel most natural and it looks the same on chart (between 82 and 120pF).
Can you make the same chart with your favorite TB circuit?
On the chart before looks great, but for me log pot becomes more like linear pot.
I think maybe 5% log will be ok?
Sorry for my english If you don't understand me, I'm still learning.
I have question about wiring without tone. Its works like 50s or modern?

[JohnH]

Hi Carlos

This is my usual one, with 1000pF in parallel with 150k, same model as above:






It does reduce the taper, but not all the way to linear. But when turning down, you do have to turn further for the same reduction - see the dB scale, and the knob settings full, 9, 7, 5 and 2.5 are as before. ,and I added setting 1 too.

I tend to use the upper half of the volume pot, but if the lower settings were where I needed to go more, I'd reduce the cap to 820 pF or 680 pF

[carlosg]

I'm very grateful for your help.
I read your topic about tone pot cap too and it's very helpful. 
I really like charts and numbers not subjective opinions and marketing.
Can you show me the same with 1nF and 130k and 1nF and 100k and with 0.82pF?


Do you know the answer to my question no tone = modern or 50s wiring (i mean treble loss of highs)

[JohnH]

I can answer about no-tone vs modern and 50s.

Modern or 50s wiring is all about the order of vol-tone or tone-volume. At full volume they are the same. But if you have a no-load tone pot (I like these very much), or no tone pot, then its brighter at than either of them at all settings. Based on the charts that we have above, the flat parts stay the same but the peak in the treble rises, about +1dB at low volume up to about +2dB at 9 or 10.

Ill can do some more charts for you - that's ok.

How about we answer this question: for your playing, other than full volume, what is the reduced volume knob setting (based on no TB or just a cap) that is most important for you? Also, your guitar controls, do they read 0-10 or 1-10? The plots are based on a 0-10 range. FYI

[JohnH]

Here are more - Ive looked at 680pF and 1000pF, so please imagine the 820pF curves between them

I was able to go down to Volume 1, at 680pF.

I did 150k and 100k, so 120k or 130k will be between. You can see that at 100k, the volume is not turning down as fast, but also all curves are flatter.

These kind of comparisons are interesting to do again, and its how I got to my own opinion that 150k is best with 500k pots, and you pick a cap 1000pF, 820pF or 680pF to best suit the most important reduced volume.

[JohnH]

Last one for now....

This is 150k with 820pF, both with and without tone pot (ie no-load tone pot). I went volume= 9, 7, 5 and 2 plus also full volume no load, so you can see it above the reference.

[carlosg]

Thank you!
Earlier I tried TB on my interface with Guitar Rig. Probably it has much compression, so resistor/cap TB doesn't work good. But I tried again with tube and ss Amp, and it works good. Without TB (logarithmic pot) I did not use below 4, because it was too quiet. With TB I have nice volume range. I tried 150k with 680pF, 820pF and 1000pF. I don't like when full volume sounded brighter than lowered so the best for me is 150k/1000pF. This is with H-H 500k vol 500k tone.
I have second guitar with the same humbucker but it's only volume, without tone pot. What TB you recommend me?

[JohnH]

With no tone pot, and given you like 150k in parallel with 1000pF on the other guitar, then the same or similar is also likely to work for you. So 150k in parallel with 1000pF or 820pF, maybe try those?

[carlosg]

Do you think resistor and cap material does matter?
Resistor can be metalized or classic carbon. Cap can be ceramic, silver mica, foil (different material) etc
I wonder is worth using foil instead ceramic 

[JohnH]

I think it's very unlikely that there is any audible difference due to which type of R or C. Different values make some difference.

[frets]

Hi Carl😸,

Although I don’t think it makes much difference at all, there exists very strong opinions in the guitar community that metallized resistors are the way to go. I believe they are supposed to be a quieter resistor but I’ll be honest, I can’t hear as difference. As to capacitors, that is a controversial subject with some saying it makes no difference what the composition material is; but again, a large contingency swears paper-in-oil and polypropylene are superior to any others. Again, I don’t think it makes much of a difference. I think you should probably buy what you can afford as if there is a difference, it is minimal. In fact, there is a body of research that shows the composition of capacitor material makes no difference in terms of auditory plotting. Maybe others can weigh in. I do use metallized resistors and polypropylene caps because I build for guitar snobs. But personally, I think you’re fine with either Carbon or metallized resistors and fine with either a ceramic, polypropylene or polyester capacitor. “Greenies,” the little green chicklet capacitors are cheap and do the job great.

[sumgai]

Further as to frets' two cents worth....

One can easily stand back and take note of the snobs, they're the ones insisting that "material X" sounds better than anything else, period. Going a step further, you'll also note that none of them have any clue as to how a cap works, nor even a resistor, though they seem simple enough to describe. I personally guarantee that none of them are engineers in any way, shape or form - they simply don't have the inclination (read as: curiosity) to invest in a formal education on this topic. Not to put these tone snobs down, their opinions are just as valid as anyone else's, but when they try to pass them off as facts, that's where I draw the line.

So why do these characters act so all-knowing about this kind of thing? After all, they'll admit that they don't know how to play classical music, or bebop, or gypsy jazz, or Heavens Above, surf music, so why are they so willing to flash swords with Zorro?

Simple - ego. Err, actually, it's deeper than that, by about two more levels.

First up is bias confirmation. No one likes the idea of admitting that they made a mistake when the purchased product X. To deflect criticism, or to defend themselves in a "discussion" (read: argument, perhaps heated), they'll proffer every excuse in the book from "everybody knows it's a fact" to "Guitar Hero [insert name here] uses it, so I'm doing it right". And that last one leads us to #2: Deep down inside, a tone nazi might not want to admit it, but he's got a guitar hero that he aspires to emulate right down to the last iota. He hungers for every scrap of data that informs him of what his hero is using, and thinks (VERY incorrectly) that using the same gear will net him the same tone. And when the Tone is there, so will fame and fortune come along directly afterwards.

Poor son-of-a-so-and-so, he's putting himself through life in the least fun way possible. I'll defer in prescribing how he should live his life, that's up to him, but I do pity those who get side-tracked and forget just why they took up the guitar in the first place, and instead spend their time trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

So, they can't offer rigorous scientific proof of their claim(s), and they refuse to sit for a double-blind listening test.... what's a reasonable person to do? I can only suggest what I personally do, and coincidentally what others here do - just smile and say "have a nice day". (Or in frets' case, take their money and then smile. )

HTH



sumgai

[carlosg]

Nov 19, 2022 19:14:14 GMT -5 JohnH said:

With no tone pot, and given you like 150k in parallel with 1000pF on the other guitar, then the same or similar is also likely to work for you. So 150k in parallel with 1000pF or 820pF, maybe try those?

I saw your topic about guitar pots. And I understand guitar with 500k vol and 500k tone sounds the same like 250k volume without tone pot?
So If single 500k volume without tone will be to bright with Humbucker I will want 250k or 300k volume. Do 150k/1000pF will be still the best option with 250k or 300k and Humbucker?

[JohnH]

It's all fairly close and up to you to decide what you like best. It depends on your guitar and amp. But if you chose just a 250k or 300k volume pot, you could use 120k and 1nF in parallel. I use that on my HSS strat with a no-load tone pot.

[carlosg]

I like when eq is the same as much possibile. But I don't like when full volume sound brighter than turned down, so I prefer 1000pf/150k with Humbucker 500/500k than 820pF. 1000pf/150k give me the best eq response.
Very thank you for your charts and answers, you helped me much.

[carlosg]

I saw that you told about Tone Saver Fender. 
I found information that is 240k and 500pF in series to 500k and 130k and 1000pF in series to 250k. 
www.proguitar.de/fender-tone-saver.html
Nice marketing by the way resistor and cap cost €42.00. But I'm curious charts.

[JohnH]

There are several different versions that Fender has called Tone saver and some are a mixture of series and parallel. But of those I tested before, none of them did as good a job as the simple R C parallel options that we have been discussing, It'll be a few days before I can do any more charts though.

[carlosg]

John what TB value you recommend for 1meg volume, no tone with hight output pickup (Duncan Distortion)?

[JohnH]

Hi Carlos,

Here are some plots with a 1M volume pot, no tone control and a Super Distortion - which may be similar to yours.

With a very high pot value, all the treble loss or treble bleed effects get increased. More treble available at max, and faster loss of treble as you turn down. Ive tested no TB (dark-blue and brown curves), then 150//0.82nF (as before), 330k//0.47nF and then 330k//0.33nF.

This time, I plotted full volume (so TB makes no difference - dashed blue), then I set the volume to two reduced dB =loudness levels, and noted the knob settings.

I think the larger 330k value resistor may be best, and then try some small caps to see what you like. Maybe the 0.33nF? (red and deeper-green curves)

[asdaven]

I like 50s wiring alot myself because I dont like alot of treble bleed just more so keeping the lower volumes from being muddy. I dont like the tone pot interaction with the 50s wiring though which is keeping me from using it.

Is there a treble bleed RC circuit in parallel or series that most closely emulates the behavior of the Gibson 50s wiring without the tone pot interaction?

I loved how lowering the volume with 50s wiring cleans up a overdriven amp. I also am not a fan of treble bleeds but would like something there to keep the sound from getting muddy in the lower volumes but that is not a complete treble boost in the lower volumes. The 50s wiring felt natural and was the right amount of treble boost to my ears. So im looking to emulate that with an RC Treble bleed circuit. Has anybody tried this?

[JohnH]

Hi asdaven
One way to tackle that would be to use a normal parallel treble bleed (cap in parallel with resistor), using a 150k resistor, but try smaller caps, such as 0.68nF or less, instead of 1nF

[asdaven]

Do you use a 150k resistor with 250K and 500K pots?

[JohnH]

Feb 6, 2023 17:16:11 GMT -5 asdaven said:

Do you use a 150k resistor with 250K and 500K pots?

I use 150k with 500k pots. With 250k pots, I found that 120k is a bit better

[asdaven]

So not 220K-250K for 500K pots and Humbuckers? Some people say if you dont, it gets thin sounding or tinny. Just wondering what you found.

I will try lower cap values. Ive tried series and parallel. A 1nf and 130K resistor in series sounded exactly like 50s wiring in my Telecaster. But in my Strat it sounded tinny and thin. Havent messed around with the parallel combos as much.

[JohnH]

What I posted above is where I got to, for the best TB recipe, though there is room to adjust values for personal taste.
The main story leading to this is on pages 1 and 2 of this thread

[carlosg]

I'm interesting this mod.
It looks when tone is on 10 it's kinman but 1nf and 220k.
What is the result on the chart?

[carlosg]

www.mylespaul.com/threads/tapered-treble-bleed.82799/