I think that if we add more coils, we need more poles on the main series/parallel switch.
Or extra switches, perhaps, with the possibility of "dead spots" if all are not set in a certain way.
ourclarioncall- We can extrapolate from what you already know to see what John means. To switch 2 things between series or parallel requires a minimum of 2 switch poles, because we have to switch both the "hot" and the "ground" of one of the two to put them in series. The "2 things" do not necessarily have to be 2 pickup coils, it could be one coil and the output from a 5-way switch, for example.
For JohnH's BM scheme, with 3 "things" (here, 3 single coils, of course)to be placed in series vs. parallel, we need 4 poles, because we are now swapping "hot" and "ground" on 2 of the 3 things being put into series. We also now have to do something else- if only 2 of the 3 are to be put in series, we must have a means to bypass the one coil not being used- we can't just disconnect it, because that would "break the series chain" between things 1 and 3.
So, scaling upwards, to do 4 coils, we would need a 6PDT switch (I think, might need 8P). These do exist I'm sure (never actually looked for one), but whether they could be had in a size to fit into a guitar cavity is questionable.
There is also the issue of the "muddiness" of the tone when multiple coils are put into series. Lots of folks don't even like the sound of 3 coils in series, much less 4 or 5.
On my 4-single coil "4caster", I considered wiring it to put all coils in series, using multiple switches to do so. The wiring of that is based on pairs of coils-coils 1 and 3 are one pair, 2 and 4 are the other. Either pair, or both pairs, can individually be put in series or in parallel, but I abandoned the idea of having both pairs being put into series. So, in its final version, a simple 3-way switch switches between each pair individually, or both pairs together, but only in parallel. This simplified things and reduced the switching (as well as reducing my headaches fitting this all into the cavity)
One of our old mentors around here, unklmickey, said it best, that series wiring "requires more housekeeping" than parallel.
The original way we were drawing the BM schemes needs a series/parallel switch of (2 x pickups -2) poles, so with 3 pickups it needs 4 poles, as generally shown. On this basis, 5 pickups would need 8 poles on a switch - unlikely. But once we went into the Everything versions, Yogi showed us how to save a pole.
Thats a problem we face around here. As soon as we imply that something is as likely as is if pigs would fly, Yogi will post a working schematic of a flying pig! . (that's how we move forward, all good! designs get better)
So Ive learnt to be cautious, but It definitely would need more than the 4 poles switch to deal with 5 pickups, Might get away with 5 poles, unproven. But that still steps outside of the switches that are easily available.
JohnH said: “I think that if we add more coils, we need more poles on the main series/parallel switch.”
Newey said: “Or extra switches, perhaps, with the possibility of "dead spots" if all are not set in a certain way.“
Do you mean using 2 switches together as if they were one large one ? For example , say we went for 5 pickup wiring and needed 8 poles, we could use two 4PDT switches side by side and switch them both together at the same time as if they were one ?
if so I don’t think I would mind doing that as I’m still in the sound exploration stage and not ready to settle down to the comfort and convenience of having my top 5 go to sounds on a five way 🙂 although the train will probably arrive at that destination one day
im happy enough just to stay with 3 coils at the moment , but if it were possible I think I would be keen to give 5 coils a try.
at the moment I find I’m reallyliking all 3 coils on in parallel. But my neck and middle pickups have both moved and inch or so closer to the bridge , so it’s a bit different than the 3 coils in parallel in their normal position
I can't make heads or tails of your diagrams without having the wires for input and output labelled.
As far as using 2 4P switches, we have had folks set up dual switches to be switched by a single actuator- for example, 2 toggles can be joined by metal strips across the 2 toggles, on one each side. But substantial wood carving is probably going to be necessary to fit such a beast into a guitar cavity. . . .
Just for fun I’d thought I’d attempt a cap switch (DP3T on-on-on)
A 3- position "on-on-on" (or, for that matter, an on-off-on) does not have 3 "throws", it is still a DPDT switch. The middle position is not a separate "throw" because it does not make a new set of connections, it simply internally rearranges the existing ones. The standard toggle used in LP-type guitars is, similarly, a SPDT switch; the center position is not a separate "throw".
A Tele 3-way switch is a true DP3T switch, since the center position can be wired independently of positions 1 or 3. (Notice that, to do so, it has 3 lugs per pole, plus the common lug).
Similarly, the standard Strat 5-way switch does not have 5 "throws", it is a 2P3T switch just like the Tele switch, as positions 2 and 4 are not independently wireable. A Superswitch, however, is a true 5- throw switch (i.e., 4P5T).
we had previously kicked around some ideas for adding a cap switch into Johns BM everything design. The two options were either having one cap switch , or three individual ones for each pickup which is what I have attempted here
would you call this a module ? Not sure 🤔. I guess it could be inserted in different places before the pickup selector on/off switches
When searching for switches, all DPDT on-on-on switches are (AFAIK) identical as to how the center position is internally connected. However, with 4-pole on-on-on switches, there are 2 different versions, depending on how the center positions connect. One should always consult the mfr's data sheet on these.
However, with 4-pole on-on-on switches, there are 2 different versions,
newey, you're forgetting the infamous Kent Armstrong switch.
EDIT: I looked around in the basement of this place, and I can't find the diagrams we used to have posted that showed the three variations side-by-side (in their center positions). Found it! Go here: Discussion on various DPDT (3-throw) switches
That links to the whole thread, but specifically the OP and 1st Reply are the brass ring to answer the above questions.
and see what you mean , it’s a bit of a minefield , easy to go and purchase the wrong switch and be utterly bamboozled as to why it’s not working
thankfully I now am armed with this info
i have been looking for DPDP on-on-on switches and I couldn’t find many but one of the ones I did find had the middle selection reversed from what I assume is the most common - down up. This one was up down.
Just be aware that the diagram you showed, about the 3 different positions - the center is incorrect. It is shown as if you were looking down on the top of the switch, and then employing X-ray vision to see the innards. Don't do that!!! We Nutz always show the underside that you can see, and put a soldering iron on to the terminals. Makes better sense to us. (And of course, there have been a few exceptions over the years, but we always, like this post, call them out for being in error.)
The thread you linked to was one I reviewed just a few moments ago, whilst searching for the "magic" all three variations side-by-side. But the one post in that thread that textually describes the way they all work.... if that makes sense to you, then you're on the right path to understanding why we're called "Nutz"!
Just be aware that the diagram you showed, about the 3 different positions - the center is incorrect. It is shown as if you were looking down on the top of the switch, and then employing X-ray vision to see the innards.
Not necessarily, despite the 'upper right, lower left' variation being by far the most common that one will likely see of ON-ON-ON switches, 'upper left, lower right' do still exist e.g. Page 3 (Positions and connections for 3-way switches) of Apem's technical information for panel and PCB switches describes their "TH (preferred)" (and what we would consider as normal) operation as well as the opposite, their "CT (reversed)".
In any event, it's still always best to get the information first-hand via checking any particular switch with a meter.
Each pickup (3 in total ) will have Four switches set out in a diamond shape. 1. Pickup On/off 2. Out of Phase 3. Cap switch with caps wired in series and parallel For parallel and series combos 4. Volume switch to cut pickup volume
So that’s 3 x 4 switches = 12 switches
The last 4 switches will also be set out in a diamond shape 1. Series /parallel 2. Series/ parallel for the off pickups 3. Kill switch 4. Master volume (full /two thirds/one third)
I’m getting very close now to completion . I have a test bed guitar and routed out plenty room for the switches . It will be tight but achievable I think.
Well, you linked to my thread on these modules, so you already "know" this, but you can use On-On-On DPDTs to consolidate some of the switching. For example, the pickup on/off function could be combined with the volume cut, thus eliminating one switch per pickup. This will ease any fitment issues as well as making the wiring less of a rat's nest. And, will also lower the costs of the switches.
Post by ourclarioncall on Aug 28, 2020 20:49:16 GMT -5
A very rough sketch of how I would add to JohnH BM “everything” circuit , but the jist of it is the pickup goes into the half volume switch , then into phase switch, then into the cap switch , and finally into the pickup on off.
i thought I would link your module to stir up some inspiration for possible rearranging/refining what I’ve got here.
and it worked as you have given me an idea 💡😁. I like the idea of putting the half volume into the on off switch but the only prob is it would need (I’m guessing ) 4PDT on-on-on which are a bit on the expensive side and I’ve just went and bought four new 4PDT on-on for the pickup on off switches . Hmm, il chew it over.
back to my request for a moment , at this stage I’m wondering if
1. my cap switch works ? It makes sense to me . I have a cap wired in parallel that I can switch on when I have two coils in series and I have another cap wired in series to use with two coils in parallel
2. is there any problems with the order of the switches ? Could I order them better .
3. any ideas for cutting down on switch count by doing as newey suggested , combining function via an DPDT on-on-on or even a 4PDT on-on-on
I help keep you guys grey matter in shape providing healthy mental stresses lol
If you aren't in the Union, my psychiatrist is gonna sue you!
“Good morning mister Sumgai (*walks into psychiatrists office) just lay back on the couch for a moment and make yourself comfortable. Now, tell me about your father ....”
“It’s not my father ! It’s this Scotsman on the internet!”
“Ok Mister Sumgai, try to remain calm, ahem, so there’s a Scotsman on the internet you say ?” (*puzzled expression sitting back with clipboard and legs crossed )
“On the internet ?”
“So what is that he does”
“It’s unbelievable Doc, no matter how we try to counsel and guide him into an easier path , he point blank refuses to use a volume pot! He won’t go near a 5 way blade ! He has this obsession with... with... urgh , I can’t bear to say it , toggle switches ! And this has been going on for over 6 months , I think I’m losing my mind !”
“Mister Sumgai perhaps it’s worth considering that this guy is young and from a strange land far away across the ocean. it’s probably just a phase he’s going through , he will grow out of it.”
“ Doc, I feel so much better . I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, I feel so much better . I think I remember him saying once he had exhausted everything there is to do with switches that he would move on to different components ! Yes, I remember now, maybe there is hope ! Here , here’s Your $400 dollars, thanks again for your time Doc, I think I can face another day at the nuthouse 😊”
Hi ourclarioncall, congrats on getting that all together. The guitar is giving out some great sounds. What are your favorite non-standard settings that you've found so far?
Thanks John ! And thanks to all you guys for your help and input , can’t Thankyou enough, I just think this circuit is amazing 🤩 so cool 😎
I haven’t had any time to really play with it , I got it finished today and then straight away made a quick vid. The amp I’ve got is a tiny tiny little thing , but when I go back to work a week on Monday I can get a better demo with clean and crunch sounds.
It didn’t work properly to start with and something was cutting out , so put a couple of dollops more solder on a couple switches and that seemed to do the trick . The soldering was hard going, spaghetti junction . I’ve learned a couple of lessons to help with next time . That’s only 5 switches, I’ve got another 11 to go to add in volume /caps/out of phase 😁😆 not sure if it will ever get completed , I have to really gear my mind for it !
As you may have noticed I’ve moved all of the pickups from their traditional homes. I would like to buy another cheap strat and do the Wiring again so folks can hear what these sounds are like on a normal strat with pickups in the normal position
On first impressions I like how the mixed series/parallel sounds fill up and fatten things for a bigger wider sound. The very last sound I used stood out to me , I think it was neck and middle in series with bridge in parallel. But again , my pickups have moved around so hmmm. The neck pup is placed in the middle of the normal neck and middles pups and the middle is placed in between where the middle and bridge normally are. Finally the bridge I straightened out but it’s close to normal
Oh by the way ,
The bridge pickup is a good bare knuckle hand wound , but the other two are cheap bar magnets . This will be having an effect on things too.