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Post by cynical1 on Dec 14, 2008 14:14:26 GMT -5
No experience, so no comfort or lack thereof. I'd probably need a walk-through, or directions to "ftp for dummies" or some such. I'm probably getting ahead of myself a bit here, as we don't actually have an FTP server to push and pull from...but Xmas is coming... There are a couple of decent freeware FTP clients (programs) out there: FTP Commander 8.0FreeFTP 3.2There are better ones you can buy...but I didn't figure anyone wanted to do that... I did find a service out of Sweden called Diino. You get 2 GB of storage with a 1 GB transfer limit per day. It's free...so it may have potential. I haven't tried it yet, but thought I'd share it and get your opinions. I would be more then happy to walk anyone through setting up an FTP client, or configuring any one of the several free file transfer services mentioned through this post. And getting back to the song for a moment...what about the the key of B flat? Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 17, 2008 11:36:03 GMT -5
Still having some trouble with my ASP upload page. I think between cynical1 and I we've got to the point where it'll be fairly easy for everybody else to get their files to me. The first step is to download the WiP mix in .wav format. To begin with, it's just the drums. Going forward I'll be adding in each track as I recieve it. This is a .zip file which includes a 16bit, 44.1K mono .wav file which you will import into your DAW of choice. Make sure it starts at the beginning. If you set your tempo to 132, the grid will line up, though you'll be counting 2 measures per in the slower section. You could build a tempo map for yourself, but I don't think it's necessary. I'd like to recieve back from you .wav files at 44.1K sample rate, 16 bits or better. I think for reasons of bandwidth, server space, and upload/download times, it's best to keep them mono. Stereo placement is going to be determined at mix time anyway. If you absolutely can't live without some whizbang stereo effect and really want to hear it implemented in the final mix, you could either try to describe it to me so I can recreate it using plugins, or as last resort send a stereo file. Just remember the first rule! If it doesn't work in the mix it will be altered and/or eliminated. Oh, and let's have the files start at the begining of the song. Doesn't have to go to the end. And please only send me your track! Don't mix in the drums. Typing in a hurry, here, did I forget any important info? |
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 17, 2008 12:28:57 GMT -5
Typing in a hurry, here, did I forget any important info? First off, I want to thank Ash for all the work and time he's put into this project so far. These are excellent details on the file type for upload. Just one burning question left to be answered... We need to agree on what key we're going to do this in... So far we have E minor and b flat minor have been offered up. I'm assuming these are "blues" minor scales...someone correct me if I'm wrong. Any opinions, comments or consensus from all you nuts out there? And just to keep it easy on ash, (and everyone else for that matter...) would anyone object if we kept it to the same key throughout in a basic blues progression. (Root, 4th, 5th) Mixing key changes and asking for re-takes using the individual "remote upload" method can be very time consuming. Ash has enough fun ahead of him without us throwing more into the mix...(pun intended) Just my two cents on this one... Happy Trails Cynical One PS: For anyone a little fuzzy on scales and chords, let me recommend Guitar Chord Wizard. It's free and very easy to use. For anyone not fuzzy on chords and scales...forget I mentioned it... |
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 18, 2008 0:20:53 GMT -5
Building a little off of what cynical1 said:
I don't really care to do any compositing for this project. I don't see any reason to put arbitrary limits like "one track per customer". If somebody wants to do a rhythm track and a separate lead, I'm cool with that and will work with whatever I get. On the other hand if you want to record 16 takes and cut and paste them together to create the ultimate track you go right ahead on. Try to make it as smooth and seamless as you can and send me one final comp track.
Enough "Rules", here's just a couple of tips.
I have the capacity to deal with a number of problems. As I said, I will do my best with whatever I get. There are a few things, however, which are difficult or impossible for me compensate for.
1) Tuning. Please tune your guitar. I'd suggest tuning it before hitting record on each take. Intonation is nice, too.
2) Timing. I could try to manipulate the audio to tighten up a loose performance, but I won't. If you're sloppy, you're sloppy. If it's bad enough to completely ruin the mix, I'll either find some creative way of obscuring it or mute it.
3) Performance in general. Bum notes are part of the fun! Don't send me a track if you're going to be embarrassed about it. On the other hand, don't not send a track for fear of embarrassment. Umm...
4) Distortion. First let's talk about the "unintentional" variety. Specifically, and most importantly, digital distortion. Some people talk about "digital overs". There's no such thing! Once you hit 0dbfs, you're done. The signal will be unceremoniously lopped off and end up with a harsh clicking nastiness that none of us want to hear. I have ways to deal with this, but I'm not sure how transparent these processes will be. In fact, a good way to do it is to distort the thing even more. Don't make me ruin your carefully crafted amp tone! In the 16 bit world there is a (somewhat overblown and misinformed) desire to "use as many bits as possible," and we've got that flingin' noise floor to contend with, but I'd much rather receive a "too quiet" track than one with digital clipping on the loudest parts.
Watch your analog gain stages as well. Some analog gear can give a "warmth" or "crunch" to a sound, which can sometimes be used to great advantage. This takes some understanding of your gear and some careful parameter tweaking. When just the peaks are hitting into distortion, it can be almost as bad as hitting the digital ceiling.
Then there's "intentional" distortion. I have about 666 different ways to add grit, dirt, crunch, fuzz, etc. My options for removing distortion are more limited. Most of the time, the guitar sound, which we think is really rockin’ when we’re alone in front of our amp, turns into a mushy, indistinct mess when introduced to the rest of the mix. A tip that I see tossed around a lot - even by folks into HEAVY metal - is to dial in the sound and then pull the gain back down from where you think it sounds great. If you're My Bloody Valentine or the Jesus and Mary Chain you might disregard this advice, but it works for most.
5) This leads us into effects in general. I'm definitely not one to lecture anybody about taste when it comes to effects. Again, I don't want to try to set too many limits or expectations. I'd be perfectly happy if this was to turn into some freaky Hendrix inspired psychedelic freak out! Just be sure you record something close to what you want to hear. Don't use a pedal unless you've got a good reason.
I would prefer to be able to make decisions re: ambience in the mix. That means, I'd rather you didn't use reverb unless it's absolutely essential to the sound. Again, MBV wouldn't be the same without that special effect verb, and neither would Dick Dale. Just would kind of suck to have one guitar in a cathedral while the rest of the band is down the street in the concert hall and the drums are in a small tiled room.
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Post by andy on Dec 18, 2008 12:28:31 GMT -5
Good advice in general! I tend to look at it from the other direction- think about the drive elements you want present in the sound and increase the gain just until they appear. It is often surprising how much sooner 'chunk' and 'scream' kick in than you might expect, only with a clearer, tighter, and more powerful sound. I have some good drinking analogies which I will refrain from here, but suffice to say that just the right amout of drive is super cool. Once you've got too much, it might feel like it is all going swimmingly, but in the cold light of day...  |
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 18, 2008 12:57:20 GMT -5
I think it's good advice for many of the decisions you might make about a sound. I apply this to all kinds of effects, eq, compression, reverb, etc.
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Post by andy on Dec 18, 2008 15:14:25 GMT -5
Good point, Ash. It's easy to over-do reverb, and I suppose compression is only working properly until you can hear it, in most cases!
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 18, 2008 15:49:06 GMT -5
It's easy to over-do reverb Years ago I worked in radio and the station manager had a philosophy on reverb..."...it's only good when you can't hear it..." |
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Post by ChrisK on Dec 18, 2008 18:55:28 GMT -5
Because this often has more to do with how it "feels" great.
(This gets lost in translation.)
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 29, 2008 16:51:19 GMT -5
Just for you still playing at home...(pun intended)...these are the progressions for the jam...as they have been agreed upon by a majority of all who voted.
Sorry, this ain't Florida... ;D Here you go -
132 BPM Progression
Em - Am - Em - Em
Am - Am - Em - Em
Bm - Bm - Em - B7
66 BPM Progression
Em7 - Em7 - Em7 - Em7
Am7 - Am7 - Em7 - Em7
C7 - B7 - Em7 - B7
Pretty much standard, really.
Any comments please feel free to chime in.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
PS: I've also added this to the first posting, just for reference.
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Post by lpf3 on Dec 29, 2008 22:15:11 GMT -5
Cool idea -I'll play  I've imported the nutzwip file into a session - nice work Ash . Any bass parts in the works ? I think verses 4 & 5 ( right where the 132 bpm part goes into half time ) could be a great spot for a bass solo . Not that I can play bass , jus' thinkin ..... How do you want to do this ? Should I take a couple of choruses , Or just play thru & let you pick the good parts ? Where should I send them when ready ? Looking forward to hearing it take shape . -lpf3 |
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Post by lpf3 on Dec 29, 2008 22:21:08 GMT -5
- I almost forgot - Em ?  Ya sure ? I usually like to play more in the middle of the neck - that Bb thing sounded interesting ...... Either way , count me in  -lpf3 |
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Post by newey on Dec 30, 2008 6:42:16 GMT -5
lpf said: As Cynical1 previously noted: ;D ;D We'll see how this works out and if there's a groundswell of support for doing it again, maybe B flat the second go 'round. But we're glad you're aboard.  |
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 30, 2008 12:41:38 GMT -5
Cool idea -I'll play I've imported the nutzwip file into a session - nice work Ash . Thanks, it was a lot easier than it sounds. I think cyn's working on a bass line. My post above is rather long, but I think I addressed most of this. I want one file from you which starts at the begining of the song. You can play as much or as little as you want. I might cut out things that are truly horrible or completely don't fit, but don't count on me to save you from embarassment. If you're comfortable with ftp I can get you the codes to be able to drop your file right back where you found nutzwip. If not, cyn's got an account on Diino (I think) and he'll help you get uploaded there and then get it to me one way or another. |
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 30, 2008 12:53:19 GMT -5
I think cyn's working on a bass line. Yes I am. I've got the 132 bpm down...still toying with the 66 bpm section... For reference, everything I'm doing is in a blues scale. Yes I do...and yes I will. PM me for the details if FTP doesn't work for you. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 1, 2009 0:45:08 GMT -5
Ash -
Just out of curiosity, what did you use to create the drum track?
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Feb 1, 2009 1:36:05 GMT -5
Ooooh sticky! Should I really be giving out my secrets? Okay fine. Don't laugh. The pattern itself comes from some minimal manipulation of one of the blues-based demo songs in Jammer Professional. I'm using v.4 because it's the last one that looked familiar. I've been using it since Windows for Workgroups, and as much as I have always said I wanted all the improvements the newer version offers I just can't use it! The sounds are the basic kit from E-Z drummer. It's by far the cheapest of the massively multisampled drum synths out there. It sounds great, though, and they've got an expansion dedicated to Michael Blair's "kit"! This is the first piece of software I've bought in a long time, and I don't regret it. The Jammer stuff was exported to MIDI, then imported into Sonar, where Twisted Kit was assigned and the whole thing rendered. I did have to go through the snare rolls and select every other hit and transpose it so it sounded like it was being struck with the other stick. |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 1, 2009 14:21:26 GMT -5
I liked what I saw on the EZ Drummer website. Seems very easy and intuitive to use.
This goes on the list of things to pick-up down the road.
Thanks
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Feb 1, 2009 16:13:19 GMT -5
We have achieved bass! Both the mp3 preview and the WiP .wav have been updated to include cynical1's contribution. Now there's something pretty solid to pile guitars on top of it. Get to it! Read the first post in this thread. Contact me or cyn via PM for info on how to upload you finished track. |
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Post by newey on Feb 1, 2009 16:39:44 GMT -5
Both Cynical1 and Ashcatlt have done yeoman's work on this project, between setting up the downloads and laying down the drum and bass tracks. +1 to each of the guys! EDIT: And, after exalting Cyn, I find out that you can only exalt once per hour! Sorry, Ash, you're at 19, I'll get you to 20 as soon as my hour is up.  EDIT 2.0:Ash-Done! |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 1, 2009 16:51:26 GMT -5
Well, thank you, newey. And thank you to Ash for all his hard work and time in...plus time in to come...
Note to all bass players: Just because there's a bass track in the Jam doesn't mean it's the only bass track. If you've got something that helps the song I would be happy to move to the cutting room floor.
Note to all guitar players: Now it's your turn. I know there are some talented folks out there. If you only want to drop a riff or two...assemble the entire rhythm track...or drop some blistering leads...then now is your moment.
Carpe Cithara
(...hope that didn't sound too Mensa...)
Happy Trails
Cynical One
BTW: Ash, I added your last post to the first post for reference.
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Post by lpf3 on Feb 4, 2009 22:22:41 GMT -5
I've tried both the mp3 preview & the .wav files but I'm only getting the original drum track - no bass . What'd I miss ?  -lpf3 |
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Post by ashcatlt on Feb 5, 2009 1:05:42 GMT -5
That gave me a scare, but I'm hearing bass on the mp3. Haven't downloaded the .wav to test it, but I'm pretty sure it's the same thing.
Is it possible you've got them cached on your machine from earlier listens/downloads?
Or is it possible your speakers aren't reproducing the lower frequencies where this bass track (currently) resides?
Has anybody else noticed this?
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 5, 2009 1:46:42 GMT -5
The bass was in the mix on the mp3. I didn't download the .wav file, so I don't know on that one.
The bass track I sent to Ash was hot compared to the original drum track, so I know it had to cut back. The majority of the bass punches in the 80-160 hz range.
Depending on the speakers/headphones you're using the bass will sound quiet compared to the drums. It comes through with a subwoofer, but on a normal pair of PC speakers, or a "less then" full range set of headphones it will sound more subdued.
LPF3 - What are you playing the .wav file through?
Happy Trails
Cynical One
EDIT: Okay, I downloaded the .wav file and the bass is definitely there. If you A/B the two the .mp3 file seems to have a quieter bass track, where the .wav file has plenty of bass...more then enough bass... I wonder if that's due to the .mp3 compression? Either way, don't lay your tracks down to the .mp3 file. Use the .wav file or your track will be impossible to sequence in the mix.
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Post by lpf3 on Feb 5, 2009 18:14:15 GMT -5
Ah yes , the old Cheap Speaker Syndrome . We just moved last weekend & I haven't unpacked my gear yet , so I listened to the new files on my wife's computer , & that was the problem . I hooked up my monitors today &  We have bass ! A fine bass track at that , this'll be fun . Actually I really needed the bass as a guide at the part where the drums get funky , I was having trouble "feeling" it there & the bass really helps . I'm sure it will take me a few days to get all my stuff setup so I can play but I should have something to add soon . -lpf3 |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 5, 2009 19:29:26 GMT -5
lpf3 -
Glad to hear all is well. There's a few parts where it doesn't exactly follow the prescribed pattern. Once during the 66 bpm section, then again at the very end. Listen to it, play through it and you'll find it.
That's about it. I played everything in a blues minor scale and tried to keep the bass low and simple to play over. Hopefully it'll work for you.
Any questions on what I played or why I played something feel free to PM me. It was kind of strange for me the first few times playing through this alone, so I understand if you hit a WTF moment with the track.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
Pres. & CEO - Road Apple Records
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Post by ashcatlt on Feb 6, 2009 14:13:03 GMT -5
EDIT:If you A/B the two the .mp3 file seems to have a quieter bass track, where the .wav file has plenty of bass...more then enough bass... I wonder if that's due to the .mp3 compression? Might be a little bit to do with that. It's more likely an artifact of summing to mono. Anyway, I'm glad to hear everything is working. |
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Post by ashcatlt on Feb 20, 2009 11:54:30 GMT -5
[crickets] I'm giving cynical1 a +1 for the idea, and especially for having the stones to lay it all out there and be the first to contribute. Now we need some guitars. Where ya at, folks? Don't be shy. We won't laugh...much. |
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Post by JohnH on Feb 21, 2009 6:09:59 GMT -5
I really like the idea of this project and I want to see it work, although the playing may be above me. But can I make a suggestion, that might make it easier for guitarist pc users to get into the groove that has been set?
I have a medium good 2+1 pc speaker system, but its bass response makes it hard to follow the detail and progression of the excelent bass track.
Could we have an interim mix with the Bass track set to a brighter EQ, maybe much brighter than you will use for the final mix, but it will help it stand out at this point to give a reference to the chordal structure. Once a guitar or two is in place, it can mix back down to the intended tone.
Just a thought - no problem if its not a good idea.
John
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 21, 2009 10:01:39 GMT -5
I feel your pain, JohnH.
I don't have the the best PC speakers...so you can imagine the fun I had trying to record and mix this...I wound up having to use headphones...not exactly according to Hoyle, but it saved me from making paper mache out of my PC speakers...
Ash -
I can put a track together here if you want. Let me know and I'll render a thinner one cut off around 100 hz.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Ya sure ? 
We have bass !
