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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 19:45:56 GMT -5
FINALLY back on the pickguard. All working. Now we try the bridge pup back on it. If it now stops working, not due to wire failure, it has to be due to an undesired continuity between the pot grounds and the bridge pup. So just scratch away a line of foil to separate the 3 controls from the bridge pup as far as I can see.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 19:14:46 GMT -5
Hi Newey,
+ve is the hot, -ve is the other (usually grounded).
Well I managed to get it working, at least with the bridge pup out and the pots out, as far as I could tell as I can just screwdriver tap the poles.
Of course putting it all back together to test with the pots in I managed to break connections. In a few places I have been using some pull back wire but it seems a little thicker and stiffer than the stuff that comes with the wires. I have now swapped it over for some nice thin wire like the rest.
Re-solder and try again.
BTW The continuity of the switch was checked with it fully desoldered. As I did with the P/Ps.
I'm not very good at failures. I'm determined come what way that this will work. Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 17:48:36 GMT -5
OK, so it was one of the reds. Now I'm back to where I was before I dissasembled the switch and volume p/p and then re-assembled some with new wire. All sounds but no neck in serial/middle and no neck in neck position.
When I previously examined the switch I saw that in soldering I overheated the switch and the ballbearing and melted a little the plastic that it guides when switching, so maybe the contacts aren't going all the way around for the neck position. MAYBE, as its in each position I still get continuity between two pairs of lugs as we spoke about before.
But still doesnt explain the serial position.
Now, when the pots are off of the pickguard - everything worked, less defined and noisier I think.
Now, when I tried before to isolate the pots the other day the bridge pup became noisy. So I put the pots back in and then started to unscrew the bridge pup to see how were the sounds without the bridge pup touching the foil on the guard in case that was grounding the neck in those two positions. Obviously, and not for the first time, I broke a contact and so nothing when the pup was out not back in. Just found the fault (I think) and will try to fix that before trying to remove the bridge pup again.
Not sure if I asked earlier, but do you see a problem with the bridge pup -ve being permanently grounded? To cause what is happening now?
D
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 16:25:14 GMT -5
Nothing is working now, and although I re-soldered the +ve to the jack still zip. Gotta be one of the two red wires next to it I guess....
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 9:18:01 GMT -5
"The series connection depends upon the two blue wires, and upon the jumper across the top two switch lugs."
Will that also affect the neck position?
"That's now one P/P pot that was bad and "probably" the switch as well. On several occasions, I have urged you to specifically test those components, and Cynical1 suggested the same. It is not clear that you have ever done so."
So far I have used 5 P/Ps and still awaiting a new switch. But I tested all replacements and the switch and they all worked fine before I started 'handling them'. p/p switch lugs came loose on two due to tension in wires from twisting to place pots in guard or to get all the wires to fit into the cavity, and solder entered another pot.
Very happy to go with the modular way. As a physicist my mind works better like that but I needed to have the modules identified firstly. I'm still coming to terms with how all the contacts and switches work, changing resistance paths and tensions.
The problem I have is that almost everytime I change something and I damage something else, although I am getting better at it.
Just so you know I have a one piece pickguard with switch, pots and bridge pup all mounted on it. Simarly the cavities run from the controls to the bridge pup cavity and on to the neck pup cavity. One BIG cavity, so they are all linked by copper tape.
In order to not tempt fate I shall just remove the purple wires and push/pull wire (across back two lugs) and try that, if not I shall remove the whole switch (again) and the vol p/p (again) desolder all, check continuities and then resolder with new wires (again).
Doesn't help have bassplayers fingers. Appreciate all your help. Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 5:16:18 GMT -5
Re my message of:
"I went back and covered with foil up to the bridge pup shell. Great no noise on the pups, this time no neck in serial/middle and neck AND bridge in neck positon."
That wasn't true. I didnt have the position collector all the way into the neck position. (Switch probably needs eventual replacement) It should have read: No neck in serial/middle. No neck in neck positon.
Changing neck phase does not bring it back in. So what is happening here? Why does neck only work in parallel? Can you identify what wiring I should check. This is my problem. Everytime I have to go through and re-check the lot which normally means finding the fault, correcting it and then making another as I do it or re-assemble etc.
My guess is the brown wire, or the ground coming off of the same p/p lug. Could it be the green? Although that is for both mid and neck positions and the middle position works fine in parallel.
I will swap out the first two wires and re-solder. Then if necessary try the green. Fingers crossed I don't wreck something else while I am doing that.
Just so we are clear here. I have the -ve from the bridge (black wire going to common on RHS, or B0) in contact with the pickguard so that is ALWAYS grounded. I guess that doesn't change anything? Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 21:58:51 GMT -5
4am, I guess I better call it a night. This is taking over my life!
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 20:59:02 GMT -5
Well I think it worked, mostly. Checked all. Re-wired. So many things can break, lose contact, go bad, pull etc when inspecting and reassembling. its 10 steps forward 8 steps back.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 20:25:02 GMT -5
I went back and covered with foil up to the bridge pup shell. Great no noise on the pups, this time no neck in serial/middle and neck AND bridge in neck positon. WTF? Most of another weekend wasted. How can it be so difficult? I still think there is something about this diagram that doesnt work for my guitar.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 17:55:24 GMT -5
Hi Cynical1,
No I'm getting it with the guard off of the guitar. It has to be a bad solder joint, or worse case scenario wire gone bad. I seem to be converging on the goal, but this has been a long a hugely time consuming exercise. Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 16:35:42 GMT -5
Nothing like consistency! Almost there! I put in a new socket wire and swapped out a bad pushpull (too much poking around and stress from constant changes broke a switch lug) and all seems to be working except the PUPs give me a lot of noise when I touch them. But not all the time and not necessarily when I have switched to that pup. E.g. The bridge will buzz when I am in neck position, the bridge doesnt all buzz in the middle position.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 25, 2011 20:44:27 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
Wife is out for the evening and child in bed. Ok, so swapped out the volume push pull for a new one. Nice new wiring everywhere. Checked switch, that is ok. Now with the pushpulls screwed to the plate I get no serial in middle position, nor neck in neck position. How many weeks have I been on this? Has anyone achieved this mod yet to verify the diagram?
Of course when I unscrew the pots from the plate it all works.
When I put everything back in and screwed the pickguard down with insulation tape between the pots and the foil on the pickguard I got all combinations BUT everything in the neck position was VERY noisy as was the middle/serial position. It was noisier still when I touched the strings, pups etc. Occassionaly in switching to the middle position there would be noise until I waggled the switch and then ok.
I'm going to go back and insulate stuff in case there are hot wires touching the grounded cavity and/or pickguard. Plus scrape away the foil away froum around the pups. Looking forward to some much needed help. Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 19:10:33 GMT -5
I took another wire from the left lower lug of the vol p/p and taped it to the pickguard. No more noise, no more pop on touching pots.
Neck pup seems weaker though. Shortly after starting to play, it started to cut out, each time I could 're-animate it' by touching the bridge PUP casing which seemed to ground it. How on earth is the bridge pup casing not grounded?
Then it just died totally. Maybe the tape came lose? Maybe another solder point broke.
Well, thats all from me until at least Thursday.
Please, if you have any ideas, do share them I thank you all, especially you Newey for your time and patience. Cheers and goodnight.
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 18:16:04 GMT -5
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 18:04:12 GMT -5
Mr Cynical1,
What you say is true. I have another build with star grounding on a strat to do, plus a pup to swap out on a Dano. The past 7 days I must have spent over 70 hours on this. Time I don't have, work, household jobs, other responsibilites, hobbies etc. On Wednesday the family comes back and it could be weeks until I have enough time undistrubed to try again. Sure I learned alot, and your words are very wise. But it has been very, very frustrating.
D
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 17:30:07 GMT -5
Ideas: Just wondered if it would help if all the grounds were the same, I mean directly wire each ground to the volume pot and not have the tone pot grounded? And to be grounded at same spot and not just on another part of the pot?
Should there be a difference that the bridge pot -ve is always connected to ground and the neck is never connected to ground?
As it is the neck is noisier and there is the grounding when I touch the pots, but they are connected and one has the jack ground soldered to it. Can they be connected to a hot? 0k Ohm between pots and jack ground when insulated.
The foil is connected to a pup +ve as it shows 5.5k ohm between it and jack ground. Right? Plus they cut out when they touch the foil IF I dont use the insulation tape with 0k Ohm seen between jack plug and foil.
There is always 0k Ohm between the jack ground and pots though.
Finally I checked the foil when nothing was mounted on the pickguard except the bridge PUP. Between the foil and the jack ground it showed 5.5k Ohm! Shouldn't there always be 0k Ohm between the bridge ground and the jack ground?
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 15:48:12 GMT -5
I dont touch the other parts: bridge etc. They are not connected, only when pickguard foil contacts the copper in the body where bridge is wired to. So no problem there. More multimeter: between foil and switch terminals, 0k Ohm for all except B1 and B2 that each show 5.5k ohm to it. ? Which connection should I be testing?
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 15:41:48 GMT -5
In neck position (fully wired) - Multimeter says: 5.5k ohm between jack ground and foil on pickguard. 5.5k ohm between jack ground and bridge pup casing or bridge braid at B0.
0k Ohm between A0 and A3, A0 and A2, A0 and B0, A0 and B3 infinite between A0 and B1, A0 and B2,
Bad switch? I guess I could de-wire and test in case all this soldering has done something since last time it was tested.
Damaged vol pot? Would it make a difference if I removed foil on the pickguard close to the bridge pup?
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 15:13:37 GMT -5
I tried taking the wire to B1 and put it to A1. Neck was the same as before, but I had bridge and neck in bridge position. Figures?
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 15:09:02 GMT -5
Maybe the B1 wire should go to the tone pot p/p ground? Or maybe it should go to A1 and not B1. Will try that. Getting desperate. Its 21h here and so have just a few hours left to work on this.......
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 13:03:32 GMT -5
Hi Newey,
Yes the neck PUP still worked. Makes no difference whether switch is screwed to foil on pickguard or not.
When I tap the neck poles gently with a screwdriver their tone becomes flatter when I touch one of the pots.
Oh, and the neck pup is definitely noiser inneck positon than in parallel position. Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 12:26:16 GMT -5
Before/after I separated the two poles? I don't understand. But I will go and try it again as it is now. Wired as in the diagram.
"the only suggestion I have is to ask you to prevent the pot shells from contacting the shielding, either by removing foil or isolating it with electrical tape, to see if that makes a difference. Are we sure it's the pot shells and not the 3-way switch body that causes the problem? Is the switch installed when this happens?"
Thats what I said before. I did that and no noise, BUT, when I touch the controls I end up grounding them (click when I touch them). The switch is installed when this happens, I will try it without being installed. BTW The switch is only connected to ground via the foil, it does not have its own ground wire connecting it to the vol pot aside from the connection at B1, or blue 1).
Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 11:28:46 GMT -5
And?
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 9:36:49 GMT -5
Hi Newey, No more scratching when I turn the tone pot. Mind you the volume pot isn't perfect. Its all this soldering and re-soldering. Anyway I've ordered some more A500k P/P. With insulation tape I get lovely noise-free neck pup, but as soon as I touch a pot to adjust volume/tone I ground them and so there is a 'plop'. Besides the S/N is worse in that position than the other two, so it can't stay like that. Need to find the fault. The switch? In the 'neck position' i.e. looking from top of guitar lever points towards the neck, on my import switch diagram, the lever is pointing towards the 'A's. I don't understand all this red and blue stuff. The diagrams I sent you are all labelled A or B. Which is A for you and which is B? Red is A and B is blue, or the other way around? I don't understand, you say lever to right is bridge position and #3 is connected, then later you say "lever to the right, Red #1 connects to Red C, Blue #1 to Blue C". ? "Now, if you didn't wire that to the correct side of the switch, it could be the cause of your problems- again, let me double check your diagram, but also double check your rewire job. Be careful that you haven't transposed #1 for #3 on the switch." Wire what? My head is spinning with all of this. Can you not just go with my nomenclature. I can't even think straight anymore. I have soldered as I have shown in the diagram, bridge hots on A3 and B3. Lower left lug of vol p/p to B1. Now I remember that earlier I switched the wire at B1 to A1 and the bridge and neck swapped around. As did the problem. The bridge was now cutting out on the pots contacting the shielded pickguard. That any help? Cheers, Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 8:18:39 GMT -5
Just spotted something. Twiddling the tone pot, it didn't go through its full track. Too much solder being flicked about I guess. Would that have done it? Solder from the ground connecting with the carbon track? In any case it is all scractchy now so I will swap it out. Cheers, Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 5:24:12 GMT -5
OK, ground loops forgotten. (Clutching at straws?)
About the switch, you explained it for a Japaneses import, where I havea regular import i.e. A1 A2 A3 A0 B0 B1 B2 B3 I still don't understand the connections. So with B0 and A0 no longer connected I should now get: [send pm]
Joined: Oct 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 37 Karma: 0 Re: Stealth tele with everything « Reply #65 on Nov 10, 2011, 4:44am »
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 12, 2011 22:02:32 GMT -5
Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!! Now its the neck. Works fine in all other positions. But as soon as I screw the vol or tone pot into the plate, in the neck position ONLY it cuts out. Prior to that its pretty noisy. It doesnt seem to be a lose connection, I mean I'm using thin wires and the smallest of movement to touch the pickguard and it cuts out. Seems more like a bad ground. In your diagram where you have the botto left lug of each swithc going to the same ground. I have each grounded to their own pot and then the grounded pots joined by a wire (possible ground loop due to both tocuhing same foil on pickguard?). Or it could be the green wire badly conected? It would help if you could explain which terminals of the 3 way are connected in each position.
I really want to get this finished before Monday as the family are coming back and it will be days before I can pick it up again. Help!?!
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 12, 2011 19:44:12 GMT -5
solved. Swapped purple wires around. Doh!
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 12, 2011 19:17:05 GMT -5
OK, so re-wired with thin wire. Now its nice and stable, only we are back with the same no parallel pups situation. Only this time its noisy/buzzy with some sound from neck in parallel, no bridge. It shows 0k Ohm between neck leads at that setting too. 5.5k ohm in neck position, infinite in bridge position. Serial is ok. Switch seems to be ok. I'm getting dizzy with all of the solder smoke! Ideas?
Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 11, 2011 4:23:50 GMT -5
Hi Newey,
Yep, the circuit board had a copper bond pad stretching between the two lugs. It came 'pre-wired', which apparently happens frequently for teles so that less wiring/soldering need occur in manufacture. I just scrapped away at that pad until they became two.
Pickguard - No, its just down to poor contacts. The tension in the thick wires puts a stress on the joints breaking contacts, although not physically. I get it to work, I put it in the pickguard, it stops working. I take it off again, stil not working. Fiddle with a few wires and eventually working again.
I just need to wait for some thinner (regular) wire I ordered a few days back, and re-wire and that should be it. Thanks again,
Daniel
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