|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 10, 2011 19:15:26 GMT -5
Little bit of scalpling and bingo!
Only, those pesky thick wires are making everything cut out when I have to bend wires to bolt stuff onto pickguard. Have to wait for more wire I gues.... Thanks Newey and everyone for your time and patience.
Daniel
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 10, 2011 11:15:57 GMT -5
OK. Thanks for that.
Three things: This switch was stock in the tele. Where should I be looking for this internal wire? Between lugs or on the board? What is to say if I buy another 3 way it wont have the same wire inside? Hold up. I've just seen two types of import switches, some with common connections on the board between A0 and B0, and some without. I'll check mine when I get home tonight. If it can be seen from the outside, else it will be a disassemble job. Cheers,
Daniel
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 10, 2011 7:15:36 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 10, 2011 4:44:14 GMT -5
OK, here goes with the 3 way switch:
There are zero k Ohm connections for: Bridge - A3 and A0, A3 and B0, A3 and B3, A0 and B0, A0 and B3, B0 and B3.
Middle - A2 and A0, A2 and B0, A2 and B2, A0 and B0, A0 and B2, B0 and B2.
Neck - A1 and A0, A1 and B0, A1 and B1, A0 and B0, A0 and B1, B0 and B1.
Phase question? I assume you mean the resistance between the green wire and ground? I get 5.5k ohm in phase and out.
Any clearer?
Daniel
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 10, 2011 3:49:14 GMT -5
Hi Newey, "OK, first of all, have you checked the connection from the back of your volume pot to ground?. Plug in a cable, one end of the meter goes to the barrel of the plug on the cable. the other end goes to the back of the volume pot. You should read very close to 0Ω If that checks out, then one of the switches may well be the culprit." Back on 0k Ohm. Not sure how to check the test the three way switch and its internal connections. I guess just one tip on ground and check resistance of each terminal for each switching position? Whilst wired I checked the vol p/p, zero ohm between each lug left and middle (both top and bottom), then zero ohm between middle and right for both top and bottom once the p/p is pulled. I could swap it out like I did for ther tone pot. "Each goes to a common ground, that's represented by the little 3-lined symbol at the bottom. There should be a dot where the two wires join, as all other connections are designated with dots. Other wires which cross each other but are not shown with a dot at the intersection are not connected." Ok, well I have the vol pot wire going to the ground on the vol pot casing, and the tone pot wire going to the tone pot casing which itself is connected to the vol pot casing. They measure 0k ohm between them. "Also please double check that you have output after the phase switch, you should read your neck pup's 4.8K between the ground point and the hot out of the phase switch, after it's disconnected from the 3-way switch." Will do. Thanks, Daniel
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 9, 2011 17:10:16 GMT -5
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllppppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its driving me mad. I get noise cause the circuit is off of the plate, in the neck, bridge and neck-bridge series positions. But in the middle position its like a perfect kill switch, zero noise! I have replace the tone push pull. Should I replace the vol push pull? Newey, just excatly how sure are you that porting a out of phase switching from the bridge to the neck is just as easy as swapping one pup for the other in your diagram? Bear in mind that whilst one pup is floating (the neck pup), the other is touching the Al foil - I have wrapped all its braid in insulating tape...
Somebody?
Daniel
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 8, 2011 4:21:20 GMT -5
Hi guys, Thanks for the follow up. Copy that on the use of thinner wire. The wiring I used I bought off of the internet and was advertised as "2MT 22AWG POLY COATED ELECTRIC GUITAR WIRE CABLE". It is thicker than I normally use. I have ordered some thinner stuff so once I get this working I will swap it out. It does say 22AWG on it though. Re soldering practice, well I don't have a work bench nor magnifying glass with lamp plus some of it was later night. Impatience and tenacity, surely not Re the taping, I did cover the bridge pup braid and taped over the switch. I remove this to position the pieces when soldering. Some measurements: With middle position selected - Black lead on a jack/shileding/either pot and red lead on the Phase switch middle terminal where the Neck Red (+) wire is connected - 0k ohm - Oops! Black on tone pot and red on either +ve or -ve wire entering tone switch in middle lugs - 0k ohm - oops! Contact between any pot and the pickguard's underside (the shielding) - 5.4k ohm - (ok?) With neck position selected - Black lead on a pot or jack and red lead on the Phase switch middle terminal where the Neck Red (+) wire is connected - 4.5k ohm (ok?) Black lead on underside and red lead on the Phase switch middle terminal where the Neck Red (+) wire is connected - 0k ohm (ok?) black on tone pot and red on either +ve or -ve middle lugs of tone switch (0k ohm or 4.5k Ohm, reversing when I pull out the tone switch) - Great! Contact between any pot and the pickguard's underside (the shielding) - (ok?) So switching between neck and middle, changes the resistance between the two neck pup wires from 4.5k ohm as it should be to 0k Ohm. I also see this at the solder points on the neck pup! How does that happen? Dodgy pot? Note that the -ve or black wire is at zero ohm with the jack at both neck and middle position. The +ve (red in diagram or white in my wiring) goes from 4.5kohm with jack when in neck position to 0k ohm when in middle position. Its as if switching to the middle position places the hot/+ve neck pup at ground! Is there something in the pot switch that connects this lug to another inside where a wire is connected that gets sent to ground, and the neck +ve, when the selector goes from neck to middle? Incidentally, I have discovered that the black metallic looking neck pickup is actually that, just looking. It is actually of black resin - and the MM shows it is therefore not connected to the cavity shileding by the little wire I placed there. Hours spent wondering how to isolate it! What a dope. Cheers, Daniel
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 18:46:18 GMT -5
Last post before bed (cue trumpeter!) Now I have the tone pot connected the grounded volume pot, when either pot contacts the al foil of the pickguard, the neck pup cuts out in the neck position (and probably all others). So it seems that a neck hot gets grounded when either of the pots tocuh the grounded plate.
Remember, -ve wire of the bridge pup is a braid which contacts across the al foil.
Confused? I'm going to bed. Thanks in advance,
Danny
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 17:41:56 GMT -5
Here's the circuit diagram: Good luck! D (EDITed by sumgai to make the image viewable without making one subject to accustions of 'mousal abuse'. )
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 16:47:12 GMT -5
OK, ok, so image shack changed the order on me. Should read this:
1st image is front of vol pot 2nd is front of tone pot 3rd is of neck cavity with neck pup screwed in with ground wire from pup to cavity plus a ground wire from cavity to control cavity. 4th is of control cavity showing bridge wire soldered to wire from neck cavity both to control cavity copper. 5th is a view of the back of the scratch plate. 6th is of top view of switch 7th is of side view of tone switch, bottom side as seen in Newey's diagram 8th is of side view of vol switch, top side as seen in Newey's diagram 9th is of side view of vol switch, bottom side as seen in Newey's diagram 10th is of side view of tone switch, top side as seen in Newey's diagram 11th is side view of switch
Thanks,
Danny
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 16:42:38 GMT -5
Hi John H and Newey, I soldered the ground with the cap onto the back of the tone pot, at least now that pot is always grounded, which helps with noise issue. Just going eat, I enclose the photos, will draw the diagram later but it is the same as how Newey's diagram is except pups are swapped around. I will draw it as is with the neck pup not touching the foil on the guard is the guard is removed. Here are the pics: 1st image is front of vol pot 2nd is front of tone pot 3rd is of neck cavity with neck pup screwed in with ground wire from pup to cavity plus a ground wire from cavity to control cavity. 4th is of control cavity showing bridge wire soldered to wire from neck cavity both to control cavity copper. 5th is of side view of vol switch, bottom side as seen in Newey's diagram 6th is of side view of vol switch, top side as seenin Newey's diagram 7th is of side view of tone switch, bottom side as seen in Newey's diagram 8th is of side view of tone switch, top side as seen in Newey's diagram 9th is of top view of switch 10th is a view of the back of the scratch plate. 11th is side view of switch Cheers, Daniel (EDITed by sumgai to remove the extraneous clickage.)
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 14:57:09 GMT -5
Ok, an update. The bridge pickup is quite a bit less noisy than the neck pup. It also more responsive to grounding against shielding.
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 14:32:13 GMT -5
Just been out to clear my head a bit. Well the wire I'm using is thicker than that I normally use and so stiffer. That doesn't help, when I get a chance I will replace it.
Still, for me the main issue to find why the pups dont work in parallel.
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 13:32:12 GMT -5
Oh, no. Back again. It just seems there is too much wiring in there that as soon as you start to bolt things on, twist and turn and place the plate back under the strings and on the guitar wires move. Maybe I've missed something here, but how does one solder 3 wires onto one lug without it being unstable? I've spent three days on this and I'm really fed up. So still two problems - Parallel doesnt work and neck cuts out when I bolt on the pots due to bad solder joint/loose wire. Might they be related? As ever, any help is well appreciated.....
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 12:37:14 GMT -5
Problem solved with the neck cutting out. On the bottom lug of the three of the vol pot I have three hot wires going there. Not being well soldered they move when their wires flex, like being pushed up against the plate.
Maybe one of these is to do with the paralllel position problem?
D
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 12:08:40 GMT -5
Hi Newey,
No that is exactly it. With the pick guard out of the guitar but the volume pot bolted onto it the neck cuts out in all positions and pull/pushes. With volume pot not bolted on then the neck works in all positions except in parallel (both in phase and out of phase).
Is it something to do with ground loops? I have the neck pickup base grounded via a wire to the copper in the pup cavity, then a wire takes that to the copper in the control cavity.
In case I forgot to mention, the pickguard houses the control section and both pups, its not the typical two piece plastic over pups and metal over control panel.
So, is the problem occuring as there is a neck connection that goes to earth when I bolt the vol pot to the pickguard as it finds a path to earth across the pickguard?
Multimeter out....
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 10:51:47 GMT -5
Hi again,
It seems like there is some sort of grounding issue as all these test are with the pots and switch 'floating' i.e. sat on the wood or plastic of the guitar. I've checked and it seems that as soon as the volume pot is screwed tight against the shielded pickguard the neck switches off for all settings. The bridge pup is mounted in the pickguard and being wired earths the pickguard.
So I have an grounding problem. Incidentally I have all my earths going to a bent back lug on the vol pot. I did make any connections to the back of my tone pot.
OK, so I realised that my connections are close or touching the Al foil on the back of the pickguard, so I put some insulating tape there under the contacts. No change, so maybe they were not touching? This means that the cut out occurs when the pot casing itself touches the Al foil.
Ok, now I'm starting to get annoyed.
Cheers,
Daniel
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 9:44:03 GMT -5
Nope, still the same. ??
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 9:26:20 GMT -5
OK, I agree. On your diagram on the volume pot p/p you have a black wire going from bottom left lug to the bottom left of the tone p/p. Is that right or is just each are going to a common ground? As I have it, I have those two shorted and then each lug has a wire going to ground which is on the back of the volume pot (grounded front lug has been bent back and soldered to back of pot).
I will remove that extra wire and see what happens. In the worse case I would be just removing a possible ground loop.
D
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 9:16:45 GMT -5
Ok,something bizzare, if I disconnect A2, then in middle parallel position the bridge is then on, but no neck. All other positions are the same. If I instead disconnect B2 I get neck on in middle parallel position, but no bridge. ??
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 7:44:06 GMT -5
I get both PUPs in middle position, both in and out of phase. In series that is.
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 7:36:58 GMT -5
I get both PUPs in middle position, both in and out of phase. But in parallel both are off, in phase or out of phase. A kill switch, great! Seriously, which connections should I be checking to solve the parallel problem? I don't understand how each connection on the switch relate to each of the three positions. Cheers,
Danny
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 5:37:49 GMT -5
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I rewired some neck side connections, now have sound from all positions except neck and bridge in parallel in/out of phase. Going to see if I can find that one.
D
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 4:40:59 GMT -5
Just a mad thought. Shouldnt my switch wiring be reversed. YOu have yours wired up for bridge on its own in 1st position etc. I have my neck connected there. Or is it just the case of turning the switch around physicallY? Cheers,
Danny
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 7, 2011 4:01:25 GMT -5
Hi Newey, About the reversal or leads, I suspected what you said, but it was worth a gamble as I was It does seem the case with the neck being disconnected. I will check all the neck connections again. The PUP was good, although I have taken it out as it was screwed into the cavity and I wanted it suspended from the plate. Unfortunately the holes are too big for the bolts I have and may not be threaded. My neighbour is bringing some M2.5 nuts tonight. In terms of grounding at the moment. The screws contact the base of the pup and they screw through copper tape and into the wood of the cavity. I also have a wire with connection rings each end, one between the spring and hole of pup base and the other screwed into copper tape/wood. Another wire is screwed into tape and goes to control cavity where it is soldered next to wire from bigsby/bridge onto more copper tape. The neck pup is a GFS Alnico Fatbody Oversized Polepiece Tele Neck Pickup. It has only two wires, neither connected to a ground. There is two blobs of solder where two narrow copper wires are connected and back from there it looks from what little can be seen that the wires branch from back there somehow. In any case I have had the pup out touching an insulating surface without any contact to guitar ground and it still didn't work. Furthermore I contacted the pup on a 20k ohm scale of the multimeter and I get 5.4k ohm, so it seems to be still working. Its got to be one of the neck contacts then. Its not those for the two wires of the neck pup as I have had them on and off and switched two or three times and nothing. The only other thing it might be is the switch. As you know I did go a bit mad with the soldering iron and some solder ran down from two or three contacts. I sucked most of it up and then held it upside down and heated them so any remaining solder ran back down. I took a close up look and it seems fine from what I can see. thanks, Danny
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 6, 2011 18:31:58 GMT -5
This is really bugging me. Could it be I have the neck pup wired the wrong way around? Thanks in advance,
Daniel
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 6, 2011 16:21:33 GMT -5
The solder has been flying around. ;D
I wired it up according to your diagram, just reading neck for bridge and vicerversa. I then transposed the Fender labelling of the lugs you made the connections to for those for an import switch.
Inadevertently I broke the outs to the jack due to a short lead - amazing, got nothing!
So having been back on the iron again I've finally finished and tested. The bridge sounds wonderful, but ere,.... no neck PUP sounds. In fact bridge only works in 1st position (vol in or out) and 2nd when volume pulled out.
Gonna get something to eat. Food for the soul. Does this help?
D
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 6, 2011 13:32:12 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 6, 2011 11:24:54 GMT -5
OK, re-worked the connections. Now I have PUPs working in series! Both in phase and out of phase, but only when neck position of switch, and volume pot out and tone pot in or out. Doh!
D
|
|
|
Post by dannyhill on Nov 6, 2011 8:35:39 GMT -5
Hi Newey, Thanks for taking an interest. I realised last night after my last post that I had switched half way through soldering between black and white wiring for +ve and -ve so I'm going to go through it again. Little things like the bridge braiding moving all over the place and shorting out stuff probably doesn't help. But I suspect its like you say, I have translated your diagram wrong. Incidentally in the neck I have a strat (GFS fatbody) which I have connected the base via the screw hole to the cavity ground. I couldnt understand why I saw a tiny copper wire on sides soldered to the base chasis of the PUP (metal) from where the leads to +ve and -ve seem to come from but they neither have continuity with the bridge chasis. The regular tele necks do that via a ground jumper to the -ve side with the covers having continuity with the case where they clip onto them. Here are the photos....time to warm the soldering iron. Big enough? Cheers, Danny
|
|