Is my crazy Strat wiring idea possible?

[santellan]

Hey Dioxic,

Try out E-switch "TL4201EEYA" with their cap "TAGBLK ". The cost is $2.35 for both items.

The only reason I have not used this switch is because I feel the
cap diameter is too big and I plan on having a custom one made.

I could make a pcb for it that uses a tone pot as the anchor point and provide 12 wiring pads or I could reduce the pads count to 6 and wire it based on John's original sketch drawing.

[dioxic]

The current and voltage generated by guitar pickups is minimal- fractions of a volt and fractions of an ampere. Any of the ones which are solder-lug connections will have more than enough of a rating for your purposes.

On-On switches can be wired for On-Off functionality by simply not wiring to one half of the switch. On- Off switches are just that, one trick ponies.

Your blower switch and series/parallel switch will both need to be On-On types.

A momentary switch, like your kill switch, operates only while the button remains pushed- good for kill switches but not useful for the other switches. Momentary acxtuation is designated by parentheses, i.e., "On-(On)" means a switch that is on in one position, with momentary actuation in the other position, so you want to stay away from those.

Electronics suppliers like Digi-key, Mouser, and Allied generally have much cheaper prices, and larger selections, than guitar parts houses do. I buy all my electronic parts from those places, not from guitar parts sellers, except for specialized items like the Superswitch which are hgenerally only available through guitar outfits.

Digi-Key, Mouser, et al. allow you to click through to the mfr's data sheets for the switch in question so that you can check the dimensions, specs, etc.

Newey, you're too helpful, have you ever heard that one before?

I'll check Digikey et all to see what looks like it'll fit the best.

Hey Dioxic,

Try out E-switch "TL4201EEYA" with their cap "TAGBLK ". The cost is $2.35 for both items.

The only reason I have not used this switch is because I feel the
cap diameter is too big and I plan on having a custom one made.

I could make a pcb for it that uses a tone pot as the anchor point and provide 12 wiring pads or I could reduce the pads count to 6 and wire it based on John's original sketch drawing.

Santellan, that's actually one of the switches I was looking at, but was also wondering how I would mount it & get a button. Where are you custom ordering your button from? the ones on the site are rather big & would look pretty out of place if I had two of them side-by-side.

As far as making a PCB, that actually sounds like a really great idea. It'd solve the mounting issue. Would it be possible to mount two to a PCB though or would that be too much? Also, would I need 12 wiring pads?

---

As far as which wiring scheme to choose, I'm going with the 5x5. I like the "Dual-Sound" setup, but I won't have room for both the phase and variation switchs. At most I'll have one tone pot open, if that even, depending on what I may or may not be able to work out with Santellan.

In regards to the 5+5 setup, could somebody elaborate on the enhanced tone control? What's the purpose in eliminating the "bassiest" pickup?

[reTrEaD]

Jan 31, 2012 22:03:25 GMT -5 dioxic said:

In regards to the 5+5 setup, could somebody elaborate on the enhanced tone control? What's the purpose in eliminating the "bassiest" pickup?

John will be able to offer a better explanation (he designed it). But I'll try.

It doesn't eliminate the pickup. It bypasses it with a capacitor. At low frequencies, it still acts like two pickups in series. But at higher frequencies, the capacitor shunts the signal from the bottom pickup of the series combination and allows the top pickup to seem as though its (-) wire is connected directly to ground. So it should have the clarity of a single coil, at higher frequencies.

I've not tried this, but it does seem interesting.

[dioxic]

It doesn't eliminate the pickup. It bypasses it with a capacitor. At low frequencies, it still acts like two pickups in series. But at higher frequencies, the capacitor shunts the signal from the bottom pickup of the series combination and allows the top pickup to seem as though its (-) wire is connected directly to ground. So it should have the clarity of a single coil, at higher frequencies.

I've not tried this, but it does seem interesting.

Definitely interesting. Has anybody had any experience with this? Boy, John sure has a lot of out there (in a good way) designs.

In theory, it maintains the added drive (or should I say output?) of being in series, correct?

[reTrEaD]

Jan 31, 2012 23:22:17 GMT -5 dioxic said:

Boy, John sure has a lot of out there (in a good way) designs.

John is to wiring designs what Colombia is to coffee. He produces tons and they're all very tasty.

Jan 31, 2012 23:22:17 GMT -5 dioxic said:

In theory, it maintains the added drive (or should I say output?) of being in series, correct?

Definitely on the lower notes. But I haven't done the math to be able to say if the fundamental frequency of higher notes might be too high to get full support from the lower pickup. It depends on the size of the cap and the impedance of the pickups.


John, or someone who has built one of his designs with this feature, might be around to tell you about their experience with it.

[JohnH]

That tone control circuit is completely optional, but its one that I like a lot - and reTreaD has described it well. It sounds like the series humbuckerish sound, with more of the single coil bridge-side pickup on top. What I will try to do is make a short clip to show you.

If the 5+5 design seems like a good base, Im happy to try adapting it to get the blower switch involved. As I said before, blowing to NxBxM can happen in series mode, but in parallel mode it can go to just one pickup Is neck definately the one? (personal choice but I would pick bridge), The other option is that, you have NxMxB in series mode, and in parallel mode it is whatever is set on the 5 way, but with vol and tone bypased.

Will need to figure out lug arrangements for these 4pdt button switches - can anyone confirm?

cheers

John

[dioxic]

That tone control circuit is completely optional, but its one that I like a lot - and reTreaD has described it well. It sounds like the series humbuckerish sound, with more of the single coil bridge-side pickup on top. What I will try to do is make a short clip to show you.

If the 5+5 design seems like a good base, Im happy to try adapting it to get the blower switch involved. As I said before, blowing to NxBxM can happen in series mode, but in parallel mode it can go to just one pickup Is neck definately the one? (personal choice but I would pick bridge), The other option is that, you have NxMxB in series mode, and in parallel mode it is whatever is set on the 5 way, but with vol and tone bypased.

Will need to figure out lug arrangements for these 4pdt button switches - can anyone confirm?

cheers

John

Hey John, a clip would be cool, but if you can't get one no worries! Also, might I ask what the merits of a treble bleed circuit are? I know what it's supposed to do, but I seem them on humbuckers much more often than Strats. I know that's not on the 5 x 5, it's just out of curiosity.

I'm okay with having the switch blow to the pickup in the relevant mode. I'd actually prefer a blow to the bridge pickup in single mode, if I said neck earlier it was a bit of a mental slip up! I think I like the idea of just having it blow to the bridge everytime rather than use whichever pickup is in place, although I suppose that could be equally useful.

Will need to figure out lug arrangements for these 4pdt button switches - can anyone confirm?

I get the feeling Santellan might be the best authority on this. Maybe he'll be able to chime in.

[santellan]

Here's the datasheet with pin numbers assigned.

santellansounds.com/Documents/Switch%20Push-Push%20Eswitch%20TL4201.pdf

I'll get back with you about having two switches mounted side by side.

[JohnH]

Dave and santellan – thats all good news.

The way the currently-drawn 5+5 design is configured, it is ideal to adapt to making the B pickup the blower selection in single/parallel mode. It would have needed some changes to do N.

Basically, the blower switch will use two poles to switch the output to the hot side of B, bypassing the main selector poles of the 5-way. In norrmal single/parallel mode, the cold side of B is grounded, so you get B. In series mode, the B pickup is at the top of a series chain with M and N. The other blower poles will have the job of stopping the 5-way from bypassing N or M, so you always get NxMxB in series/blower mode.

The diagram for the 4pdt push button switch that santellan linked to has lugs laid out similarly to a normal 4pdt toggle, so my diagram will be valid for the series/parallel switch, we will need to be careful as to whether it is spun 180 degrees, so switch-pushed-in is series mode, and blower mode for the second switch to be added.

John

[dioxic]

Dave and santellan – thats all good news.

The way the currently-drawn 5+5 design is configured, it is ideal to adapt to making the B pickup the blower selection in single/parallel mode. It would have needed some changes to do N.

Basically, the blower switch will use two poles to switch the output to the hot side of B, bypassing the main selector poles of the 5-way. In norrmal single/parallel mode, the cold side of B is grounded, so you get B. In series mode, the B pickup is at the top of a series chain with M and N. The other blower poles will have the job of stopping the 5-way from bypassing N or M, so you always get NxMxB in series/blower mode.

The diagram for the 4pdt push button switch that santellan linked to has lugs laid out similarly to a normal 4pdt toggle, so my diagram will be valid for the series/parallel switch, we will need to be careful as to whether it is spun 180 degrees, so switch-pushed-in is series mode, and blower mode for the second switch to be added.

John

Glad to hear that the conversion is one that's more on the easy side.

Well, looks like things are definitely shaping up! Thanks for all the help thus far guys. I've gotta run of to work, but I'll be back later today. Keep me updated!

[dioxic]

Hey John,

Just in case you were wondering the passive midrange control is wired in like so..

www.guitar-mod.com/wiring/strat_sec.gif Just the extra tone pot going into the master tone control (green line)

It's simple enough & shouldn't make a difference in what you were planning, but I figured it can't hurt to show you.

[JohnH]

Well, here is first, and second, pass at a diagram:



The good news is that you only need to build the top half, because the bottom part is the schematic. The bad news is that it is a humongous doozy of a circuit! The super-switch and two four-pole switches are intimately mixed up, so lots of wire links to make.

Bu this can be done, and once built, it should work logically like it says on the packet.

You will have to figure out where physically the switches go and how they are mounted. This may result that some of the wire runs would be better differently placed, but so long as the same things are connected it is OK. Where a wire joins several lugs in a chain, you can change the route and order of that wire.

I have tried to use the same colours on the schematic and wiring diagram, to help follow the circuit, and I have labeled the super-switch poles A to D on both, and lugs 1 to 5.

The table on the diagram shows the main selections, and the two that are selected in blower mode where all tone and volume controls are cut out.

My enhanced tone control did not make the cut. It was too many connections for the blower switch to deal with, and I also think with your mid-shaper pot, it will be better to have simple main tone pot. You might consider a no-load tone pot, to take some load off - either bought or home made from a standard pot.

Selection 5 in series mode, is Bridge with a bit of Neck (Neck reduced by bypassing with a resistor). Its a nice alternative thicker bridge sound. Another version that you can try, would be to put a 47nF cap in place of the 12k resistor, which is basically what that tone control was going to do.

This diagram definitely needs another check before building, but I thought you might like to start getting your head around it first. To help wiring, I can do another view with the pickups deleted to make it clearer.

cheers

John

[santellan]

Now will 2 switches fit side by side in a Strat? Yes it will as you can see here ( see post #49 for updated mechanical drawing). The view is from the back of a rear routed Strat so make sure you orient the dimensions correctly before you drill your pickguard.

I could simplify the wiring by putting some of it on the board to help reduce the number of wires.

John,
could the enhanced tone be added in place of the mid shape pot?

[JohnH]

Feb 3, 2012 18:22:23 GMT -5 santellan said:

John,
could the enhanced tone be added in place of the mid shape pot?

Technically yes it could. The switch issue I had was that in order to get the 5th series selection, I needed an arrangement where there were two wires on the S/P switch that needed to be cut by the blower, so I did not have a spare blower pole to cut an extra tone pot connection. If a slightly different selection was made instead of BxNbypass (eg Bx (NxM)bypass), it could free that pole as needed.

John

[dioxic]

The good news is that you only need to build the top half, because the bottom part is the schematic. The bad news is that it is a humongous doozy of a circuit! The super-switch and two four-pole switches are intimately mixed up, so lots of wire links to make.

Bu this can be done, and once built, it should work logically like it says on the packet.

You will have to figure out where physically the switches go and how they are mounted. This may result that some of the wire runs would be better differently placed, but so long as the same things are connected it is OK. Where a wire joins several lugs in a chain, you can change the route and order of that wire.

I have tried to use the same colours on the schematic and wiring diagram, to help follow the circuit, and I have labeled the super-switch poles A to D on both, and lugs 1 to 5.

The table on the diagram shows the main selections, and the two that are selected in blower mode where all tone and volume controls are cut out.

My enhanced tone control did not make the cut. It was too many connections for the blower switch to deal with, and I also think with your mid-shaper pot, it will be better to have simple main tone pot. You might consider a no-load tone pot, to take some load off - either bought or home made from a standard pot.

Selection 5 in series mode, is Bridge with a bit of Neck (Neck reduced by bypassing with a resistor). Its a nice alternative thicker bridge sound. Another version that you can try, would be to put a 47nF cap in place of the 12k resistor, which is basically what that tone control was going to do.

This diagram definitely needs another check before building, but I thought you might like to start getting your head around it first. To help wiring, I can do another view with the pickups deleted to make it clearer.

cheers

John

Sorry I took so long to get back to you john!

The circuit looks like a doozy indeed. Just to be clear, the view in which it is presented is as if I was staring into the Stratocaster cavity, correct?

My wiring experience is more or less limited, but this looks like something I'll be able to pull off with proper color coding of wiring & going down a strict check list to make sure I've done everything properly.

I got the mid-shape pot today. It has two wires for connection, I'm assuming one if to connect to the tone pot while the other is just for grounding.

I consider trying the 47nF cap, but I think I'll give the standard 12k resistor a try first and go from there.

Now will 2 switches fit side by side in a Strat? Yes it will as you can see here santellansounds.com/images/4PDT_X_2.jpg

The view is from the back of a rear routed Strat so make sure you orient the dimensions correctly before you drill your pickguard.

I could simplify the wiring by putting some of it on the board to help reduce the number of wires.

Santellan, thanks for the cad mock up with both buttons. It'll certainly make cutting for the design much easier.

Anything you could do to simplify the wiring would be most welcomed! May I ask the status on your attempt to mount the buttons to a tone pot & your custom buttons as well? I don't want to make the cuts for the pickguard until I know for sure how they will be mounted & what if any buttons I'll be using.

Looks like things have come together nicely so far guys, thanks a lot! I had explained this idea to a local guitar tech & he just looked at me like I had a screw loose

It's not totally done yet, but I think it's safe to say we're pretty close!

[ashcatlt]

Guess I'm a bit late to the party for this, but you did ask...

This thing with the "special cap" bypassing one of the series coils is often called "broadbucker", and sometimes "half parallel".  The switching on my "baritone" strat is all about broadbucker tones - both inter- and intra-pickup.  

Baritones and Broadbuckers contains a pretty extensive exposition of this type pf thing.

My Rickenbacker is also capable of several versions of broadbucker tone.  WannaHear My Rick has samples.

[santellan]

Here's the schematic to the dual 4pdt tone module. ( See post #52 for updated schematic )

I made some connections on the board to reduce the wiring. I have 2 set of wiring points one for the superswitch and the other for the pickups and volume pot.

John maybe you could incorporate the wiring points to your schematic for ease of use. Also the board will be smaller than the first version. I will post it later

[JohnH]

santellan - just so I understand, are you actually making a board for this design?
cheers
John

[dioxic]

Feb 9, 2012 3:35:57 GMT -5 JohnH said:

santellan - just so I understand, are you actually making a board for this design?
cheers
John

Hey John,

I had some correspondence with Santellan via email & hope he doesn't mind me answering for him.

He is intending to make a board for this design. To paraphrase, he estimates the whole process could take about 6 weeks or so in order to have it done in an economical manner.

Regards

David

[santellan]

John,

I was just about ready to send some new tele designs out to fab anyway so I thought why not piggy back 1 more board onto my panel.

So yes I will be making boards but only 10 units. I thought it would be fun and also help David out.

Here's the final mechanical drawing with the switch locations that will need to be drilled on your pickguard. The drill size should be .270" diameter. You will also need to solder 14 wires into the provided solder pads.

One concern for me is if the Superswitch is too wide it may interfer with the board so you can either rotate the board to clear the superswitch or just buy a narrow version of it.



FYI I an planning to keep one unit, david gets the other and I am making the other 8 avaliable for the cost of parts which will be about $12 for 2 switches with black caps, a Bourns pot (rated for 200K rotational cycles instead of the standard 15K) plus some extra tonal goodies I am designing in for myself as my way of saying Thanks to the whole crew here at GuitarNutz 2

[JohnH]

Nice work on the layouts. I think you are doing a good thing making these boards.

I had a question about mounting the board. I see that it will be incorporated with one of the pots. I assume the pot, nutted to the pickguard, is the main support for the board. Do the switches also have nuts to the PG ? If not, with the push switches off to the side of the pot, do you think it will be stiff enough? ie, when you push a switch, will it flex the board too much? If that is a problem, an extra screw hole in the board, into a block epoxied to the back of the PG might help. Or maybe a block to the back of the cavity - not fixed to the board but in position to push against.

John

[santellan]

I am going ahead and making the board for the volume pot location. Here is the updated schematic reflecting this change so that you can wire it properly



The board being only 1.4 inches long will present no problem with flexing since it will be .062 thick. The nut for the pot will hold it to the pickguard and the board will have 5 solder points to the board. 3 will be the leads on the pot and 2 will be solder points to the pot case so it will be very secure.

That being said I will look into putting a hole into the board for a standoff.

I plan to send it out to fab on Monday.

[dioxic]

Hey Santallan, I just saw this. Cool that you decided to go with the volume pot instead of the tone! Whatever works best for you / whoever else is interested in getting one. Did you end up putting a hole in the board for a standoff?

[santellan]

Ok I just received the bare boards and have dropped them off to my assembly house. It's looking like in 2 weeks and I should have 5 boards ready to go but the next 5 will not be available until next month.

[dioxic]

That's great to hear Santellan! Thanks again for making all this possible.

John did you still plan on integrating the board into the circuit? It's obviously not a necessity, but it'd be appreciated.

You guys rock!

[santellan]

Here's the wiring diagram for the 5x5 module to the superswitch, kill pot and rg500 pot based on John's drawing and my last schematic

[JohnH]

Mar 9, 2012 16:32:33 GMT -5 dioxic said:

John did you still plan on integrating the board into the circuit? It's obviously not a necessity, but it'd be appreciated.

I think santellan has that covered above, so Ill pass, on that opportunity!

John

[santellan]

I updated some links since I have a new web server and they were broken.

I am also posting the mechanical information on where to drill your pickguard using the volume pot as the starting point.

[santellan]

The boards are in. I only have 5 in stock and have them priced at cost. They can be found on my website santellansounds.com under Accessories & upgrades / Elek-trix Custom Modules

[merseymale]

this is my 1st post EVER!

I am trying to get a schematic for...

2 HB with VOL & Variable Coil-Tap(instead of TONE pots) for each .

I want a push/pull on 1 'TONE' pot for master series/parallel when 3 way toggle is in center position.

Problem is I need a kinda 'D.I. switch' for the Bridge 'bucker...

By 'D.I. switch' I mean when you pull up the 'tone' knob everything's bypassed & the bridge pickup goes straight to the Jack with no loading.

I'd be great if the D.I. was always un-tapped HB too but IF the tap just HAS to be included if the 'tone' knob's set that way then so be it I suppose.

The frustrating thing about all this is that I honestly can do all these features seperatly but am having difficulty putting 'em all together on the 1 axe! HELP!

Both HBs have 4 core cable

THANKS IN ADVANCE, YOU GUYS!