Is my crazy Strat wiring idea possible?

[dioxic]

Hey guys,

I was searching the web for help with a complicated wiring scheme for my Strat when I stumbled upon this gold mine of a forum! Do you think that there's any chance one of you could help me out?

I'm still unclear on 100% of the specifics because I'm not sure if some of my ideas are possible. There's also multiple ways to achieve some of the things I'm looking for.

I've got a SSS Fender Stratocaster, which is currently setup w/ custom pickups in a stock fashion w/ a mega switch not being utilized. It uses 300k because they're slightly over wound & I think that's what sounds best with them. The middle pickup is RW/RP. Here's what I'm hoping to accomplish:

• Replace volume pot w/ a push/push pot for a kill switch from Shadow Electronics www.shadow-electronics.com/viewpro.html?lang_id&id=266
  
• Replace the treble tone control w/ a RG500 passive mid sweep from Rothstein Guitars www.guitar-mod.com/rg_passive.html
  
• Wire in a "blower" switch, similar to the Suhr Guthrie Govan Signature model, but if possible I'd like the switch to "blow" to the Neck + middle + bridge in series. If not, then just to the neck pickup alone.
  
• Have another push/push switch to engage alternate wirings with the super switch. Those alternate wirings would be the following:
  • Pos 5. Neck + middle in series
    
  • Pos 3. Neck + bridge either on or in series (for those tele-like tones)
    
  • Pos 1. Bridge + Middle in series or Bridge + Middle + Neck in series
    
  
  
  

I'm still a little unclear on pos 4 & 2, but I'm thinking a Neck + Middle + bridge in parallel (for that super quack) & and maybe an out of phase Brian may type sound.

I'd suggest using the extra tone pot as a push/pull for phases, but I think it might make things even more complicated & might not even be possible in the first place.


As far as the pot values go, the mid control pot has a sweep that's set at 350k in the middle, so that's close enough to optimal for my pickups.

However the Shadow kill pot has a value of 250k. I suppose I've got a few options:

• Wire a capacitor to the kill pot to make it more like a 300k.
  
• Use the 500k version of the kill pot & just scale back the volume a little bit (If I'm not mistaken that's how it works). I'm just concerned that his approach will mess with how it reacts to fuzz pedals.
  
• Install yet a third button, but make this one a momentary switch.
  

The value of the middle tone pot really depends on the setup for the push/push switches.

I'm considering using the Tone Shaper Push/Push Pot on my middle tone knob because I can't find any push/push buttons that'll work! Would any of you happen to know of any?

www.toneshapers.com/ToneShaper-PushPush-Switch-Split-Shaft-P2770C341.aspx is what I'm talking about for the middle switch.

The problem with that approach is that I won't be able to have the second push/push button for switching to the alternative pickup positions for the mega switch.

So guys, is it possible for me to have my cake & eat it too? Or am I just crazy?

Thanks,

D

[JohnH]

Hi dioxic - just wanted to say welcome to GN2. You seem to have plenty of the kind of ideas that we like around here.

I liked the kill pot gadget - it seems to work well in the vid. I don't know if anyone here tested that mid sweep pot, particularly is a guitar in which you are using various series and parallel wiring combos. In general my guess would be that you may want to move towards higher pot ohms as the best compromise to suit series wiring.

On your choice of combos, have you looked through the schematics subsection here? There are lots of SSS schemes. If you want two banks of five sounds, you might consider having your favorite 5 single and parallel sounds, and then change to five series sounds. For a fairly free choice, that sometimes takes a super-switch and a four pole toggle (or S1 switch that Fender use, but I don't know if you can buy them)

Anyway, most of what you want is do-able, but it may be that one or two aspects need to adapt a bit to suit how the wiring comes out.

I'm sure others will have ideas, and you might even get a design offered!

John

[dioxic]

Jan 29, 2012 1:53:44 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Hi dioxic - just wanted to say welcome to GN2. You seem to have plenty of the kind of ideas that we like around here.

I liked the kill pot gadget - it seems to work well in the vid. I don't know if anyone here tested that mid sweep pot, particularly is a guitar in which you are using various series and parallel wiring combos. In general my guess would be that you may want to move towards higher pot ohms as the best compromise to suit series wiring.

On your choice of combos, have you looked through the schematics subsection here? There are lots of SSS schemes. If you want two banks of five sounds, you might consider having your favorite 5 single and parallel sounds, and then change to five series sounds. For a fairly free choice, that sometimes takes a super-switch and a four pole toggle (or S1 switch that Fender use, but I don't know if you can buy them)

Anyway, most of what you want is do-able, but it may be that one or two aspects need to adapt a bit to suit how the wiring comes out.

I'm sure others will have ideas, and you might even get a design offered!

John

Hey John,

You can call me Dave! Thanks for the welcoming & I'm glad to be here. It looks like this is the only place that I could express such a wiring idea & not have people look at me like I'm crazy

I also probably wouldn't get very far on my own, so it's great that there's a resource like this where like-minded people are seemingly interested & willing to help out.

This kill pot is pretty cool! It's a great way to keep the original Strat vibe .

As for the mid sweep pot, I guess there's only one way to find out. Hopefully somebody here has tried it though. Are there any potential problems that you can think of off the top of your head?

Fair enough with the 500k pot value, maybe I'll be able to tweak my fuzz or get an EQ pedal if things get too bright. My main concerns are that it'll 1. Make it too bright, even with the EQ pedals & 2. get rid of that classic "woody" strat tone that I use a lot for rhythm & more funk oriented playing.

Would you mind giving me an example of the 4 pole toggle super switch combo if you've got one?

It'd be hard for me to combine sounds because I all 5 switch positions a lot. In the past I didn't use the middle, but like I mentioned I have a custom set of pickups & the middle is overwound. It makes it super useable by itself. Great for chord work & even lead sometimes. I might be willing to sacrifice it in the future, but I've only had these pickups for about a week & I'd like to become more well acquainted with them before throwing out a stock sound like that.

As far as the out of phase stuff goes, I'm not too familiar with all the different out of phase sounds & what they're useful for. I've never had a strat w/ out of phase sounds. I just figured since I had two extra notch positions it was something to consider. Another thing is, do my pickups need several outputs for out of phase sounds?

My main goals are to get those great single coil rhythm / lead tones w/ spank & woodiness etc. & still have a decent approximation of humbucker sounds for rhythm, but especially for lead.

The push/push blower switch is 100% necessary regardless of the setup. I'd pick that above everything if I had to choose just one thing, but thankfully I don't haha.

I saw the Strat Lovers wiring that you enhanced and it looks pretty interested if I do say so myself although probably not quite what I'm looking for.

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=3153

This one looks pretty interesting. I noticed that he "special caps" when in series. Why is that?

Last, but certainly not least, your "dual tone" system looks like it could be something that I could base my ideas off if. guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=3156

Although, I'm opposed to the idea of using mini toggle switches if at all possible. I'd really rather use the mini push push buttons as they're very easily accessed in live situations & are pretty low profile.

I'm also curious which pickups in series, in your opinion, give the best humbucker approximation.

Thanks again John,

D

[JohnH]

Heres a few links:

ChrisK's s-none switch
You saw that one, but it has in common with the Strat-lovers Strat, the idea to use a two pole switch to change to series. You dont have a free choice of series options, but you get quite a few. The special cap is used to partly bypass one pickup, letting treble from the other be more prominent.

You saw my Dual sound strat, which uses a 4 pole toggle, and only a standard Strat switch. On the diagrams there, I used a pot as a blender to get series variations. Since then, I've consolidated that function back onto the 5 way switch, to free up a pot to mix in a piezo system.

This one may be of interest, but also with a 4 pole toggle: Strat 5+5. In common with the Dual-Sound, th e toggle puts all the pickups in series and then the other controls cut out unwanted ones.

This is another very popular mod here:
Mike Richardson wiring, again with a two pole series/parallel switch.

This one is my favorite that I have not built yet, but others have:
Strat SP

As to which series settings sound best, I think it may depend greatly on your particular set up and pickups. On mine I like NxM and BxN, with N partly bypassed so it is mainly bridge, but a bit thicker.

cheers

John

[reTrEaD]

Jan 29, 2012 2:40:21 GMT -5 dioxic said:

I'm also curious which pickups in series, in your opinion, give the best humbucker approximation.

In regards to hum-canceling, you need one normally wound pickup and one RWRP pickup, if the pickups are in-phase with each other. Since most strats only combine neck+middle and middle+neck, they use a RWRP for the middle.

That means that neck and bridge won't hum-cancel, unless you have one of them out of phase.

In regards to tone, putting any two in series will double the inductance and double the voltage. This will be more inductance than a standard Paf HB. More like an overwound HB. But there is a greater spacing between two pickups on a strat and the two coils of a HB. So it wont sound exactly the same a HB.

[dioxic]

Jan 29, 2012 3:18:21 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Heres a few links:

ChrisK's s-none switch
You saw that one, but it has in common with the Strat-lovers Strat, the idea to use a two pole switch to change to series. You dont have a free choice of series options, but you get quite a few. The special cap is used to partly bypass one pickup, letting treble from the other be more prominent.

You saw my Dual sound strat, which uses a 4 pole toggle, and only a standard Strat switch. On the diagrams there, I used a pot as a blender to get series variations. Since then, I've consolidated that function back onto the 5 way switch, to free up a pot to mix in a piezo system.

This one may be of interest, but also with a 4 pole toggle: Strat 5+5. In common with the Dual-Sound, th e toggle puts all the pickups in series and then the other controls cut out unwanted ones.

This is another very popular mod here:
Mike Richardson wiring, again with a two pole series/parallel switch.

This one is my favorite that I have not built yet, but others have:
Strat SP

As to which series settings sound best, I think it may depend greatly on your particular set up and pickups. On mine I like NxM and BxN, with N partly bypassed so it is mainly bridge, but a bit thicker.

cheers

John

All of those provide some pretty interesting possibilities.

All of the wirings you linked to seem like they could be tweaked to achieve what I'm hoping to do. I think I might like your Strat SP best with its parallel / series switch & then the added phase switch. However, I don't think I'd need the enhanced tone control since the guitar would already be kinda bright with the higher value pots. I probably also woudn't need the phase knob. That would also leave a spot open for my mid scoop / boost control.

Do you guys think I could use this switch for the blower switch & another as the serie / parallel switch? www.guitarpartssite.com/0020803000-p/0020803000.htm

I'm also still unsure if it's possible to get the blower switch to blow to having pickups in series, but bypassing the tone & volume controls.

That'd open up the middle tone pot & leaving it as a push/pull for the phase switch.

Jan 29, 2012 3:20:26 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Jan 29, 2012 2:40:21 GMT -5 dioxic said:

I'm also curious which pickups in series, in your opinion, give the best humbucker approximation.

In regards to hum-canceling, you need one normally wound pickup and one RWRP pickup, if the pickups are in-phase with each other. Since most strats only combine neck+middle and middle+neck, they use a RWRP for the middle.

That means that neck and bridge won't hum-cancel, unless you have one of them out of phase.

In regards to tone, putting any two in series will double the inductance and double the voltage. This will be more inductance than a standard Paf HB. More like an overwound HB. But there is a greater spacing between two pickups on a strat and the two coils of a HB. So it wont sound exactly the same a HB.

Yeah, I'm aware it won't sound exactly like a HB, I'd be satisfied with something close. Unfortunately on my pickups the middle is the only RW/RP of the set. The hum wouldn't be too bad with the N*M*B, would it? I've seen many other people get great results.

[JohnH]

I have NxMxB on my Strat, and it is not excessively noisy, especially since it is also quite loud.

If you took the SP design as a base, the next step might be to see what would be needed to make a blower switch. It would have to disconnect parts of the circuit, and join them back together in a new series combo. It might need several poles and make the wiring quite tangled!

cheers
John

[dioxic]

That's good to hear, sounds like that combination is exactly what I'm looking for in my blower switch. It'll come in handy in the more progressive / fusion based music where I have to jump readily between soloing & more rhythmic playing.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to come up with a solution for the blower switch, so hopefully somebody here will be willing to help. Depending on how tangled things get I suppose I could group wires together with electrical tape & / or zip ties just for a little more organization.

[newey]

dioxic-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Wire in a "blower" switch, similar to the Suhr Guthrie Govan Signature model, but if possible I'd like the switch to "blow" to the Neck + middle + bridge in series. If not, then just to the neck pickup alone.

As JohnH noted, this is the tricky part. I think it's much more likely that this could be done with your second option, the "neck alone" plan, at least with a 2-pole switch. I think putting all three in series and bypassing the controls will require more poles- which means a larger switch which may give you fitment problems.

Note that the folks at Tone Shaper make a narrower superswitch, which they say is necessary to use their switch/pot thing with a superswitch. I'm not exactly clear on why you want to use that piece, as opposed to just using a another push/push pot.

However the Shadow kill pot has a value of 250k. I suppose I've got a few options:


Wire a capacitor to the kill pot to make it more like a 300k.
Use the 500k version of the kill pot & just scale back the volume a little bit (If I'm not mistaken that's how it works). I'm just concerned that his approach will mess with how it reacts to fuzz pedals.

I doubt you could hear the difference between a 250K and a 300K pot, if it's just the one pot. I wouldn't worry unduly about this aspect of things.

Also bear in mind that most pots for use in guitars are made to a 20% tolerance. This means that a nominally 250K pot could actually be anywhere from 200K to 300K and still be within spec.

And your 300K, likewise, could be from 240K to 360K. Theoretically, the 250K you get from Shadow could be a larger value than any of the 300K pots you have in there now.

Do you guys think I could use this switch for the blower switch & another as the serie / parallel switch? www.guitarpartssite.com/0020803000-p/0020803000.htm

Those will work, subject to my proviso above with regard to the number of poles.

[dioxic]

dioxic-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Thanks Newey! You've got quite a cool community up & running here.

As JohnH noted, this is the tricky part. I think it's much more likely that this could be done with your second option, the "neck alone" plan, at least with a 2-pole switch. I think putting all three in series and bypassing the controls will require more poles- which means a larger switch which may give you fitment problems.

Hmm, if a larger switch is the issue, I think I'd still be able to fit it. I wouldn't mind routing a a small hole or taking out a little extra space from the wood underneath the pick guard if that's what is required. I don't know how I missed this earlier, but I just saw this one here:

www.acmeguitarworks.com/Switch-Fender-Push-Push-DPDT-P67.aspx

It looks like it has enough connections to do what I'm talking about.

Note that the folks at Tone Shaper make a narrower superswitch, which they say is necessary to use their switch/pot thing with a superswitch. I'm not exactly clear on why you want to use that piece, as opposed to just using a another push/push pot.

Yes, I'm aware that if I went that route I'd have to buy the smaller super switch, which is no issue. I might have to do it anyways to fit in 1 and / or 2 push push buttons. I want the push/push format for the blower switch because of it's accessibility. If I have a blower switch as a push/pull pot it's essentially useless because I can't switch in the blink of an eye. That's especially critical in my more progressive / fusion band. In my eyes it's comparable to having separate rhythm & lead circuits in the sense that I'd be able to have the controls set up for one sound & jump to a solo without having to adjust any knobs.

I doubt you could hear the difference between a 250K and a 300K pot, if it's just the one pot. I wouldn't worry unduly about this aspect of things.

Also bear in mind that most pots for use in guitars are made to a 20% tolerance. This means that a nominally 250K pot could actually be anywhere from 200K to 300K and still be within spec.

And your 300K, likewise, could be from 240K to 360K. Theoretically, the 250K you get from Shadow could be a larger value than any of the 300K pots you have in there now.

My pots are all measured at exactly 300k, but I understand what you're saying and actually agree in hindsight. If it's just one pot the difference will be pretty negligible overall, although the 500k pot could make a difference for the in series positions if the shadow pot I get happens to be one that's on the lower side of the 250k.

[newey]

Hmm, if a larger switch is the issue, I think I'd still be able to fit it. I wouldn't mind routing a a small hole or taking out a little extra space from the wood underneath the pick guard if that's what is required. I don't know how I missed this earlier, but I just saw this one here:

www.acmeguitarworks.com/Switch-Fender-Push-Push-DPDT-P67.aspx

It looks like it has enough connections to do what I'm talking about.

It's a DPDT switch, just like a P/P pot. I suspect you'll need a 4-pole switch, which can be had as toggle switches, but I'm unaware if such a switch is available as a push/push. Never saw one, but I never looked real hard either.

You've got quite a cool community up & running here.

Thanks, glad you like. The great folks who hang out here make the community, I'm just the doorman.

[newey]

I want the push/push format for the blower switch because of it's accessibility. If I have a blower switch as a push/pull pot it's essentially useless because I can't switch in the blink of an eye.

No, I understand that you want a push/push for a quick change- that's why I said a "push/push pot". This offers some space savings, although if you want a separate switch, that's understandable as well.

[dioxic]

It's a DPDT switch, just like a P/P pot. I suspect you'll need a 4-pole switch, which can be had as toggle switches, but I'm unaware if such a switch is available as a push/push. Never saw one, but I never looked real hard either

Hmm, I've looked around & haven't seen anything with that configuration for a push/push. There was one button that looked like it might've worked, but it was discontinued a few years back.

No, I understand that you want a push/push for a quick change- that's why I said a "push/push pot". This offers some space savings, although if you want a separate switch, that's understandable as well

Ah! I misunderstood you. Have you had experience with the push/push pots before? I had one in the past & it was pretty crappy (it broke within the first week). It's entirely possible I just had a dud, but the quality of the unit from the beginning just seemed sub par.

I'd prefer it as a DPDT switch because I think it's still slightly more accessible I.E. You can press down without a break in your playing, but to be honest it's a small compromise. If the other way is too complicated and / or impossible, then I'm all for it.

Do you know how much resistance they give? Basically, would I be able to push it down with my pinky finger?


I would probably end up still using a Fender DPDT switch, but it'd be for the series / parallel switch.

[sumgai]

Jan 29, 2012 3:20:26 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

In regards to tone, putting any two in series will double the inductance and double the voltage.

Oh? Does Wheeler's Formula know about this?

I was under the impression that inductance was only one determining factor in the frequency response of a coil, at least insofar as guitar pickups are concerned. Used otherwise, such as a choke in a power supply, then doubling the inductance really has no bearing on the output voltage, except to smooth it out even more (remove ripple).

In practical terms, again in the guitar world, factors such as inductance, DC resistance, AC impedance, and other assorted "popular" buzz-words never have a 1-to-1 correspondance with the output level - several long-established formulae get in the way of that kind of wishful thinking.

Now if we were to consider flux, that'd be a different story.

Long story short, folks..... it all plays into the overall sound, or what we refer to as Mojo, but there are no hard and fast rules as to what factor yields which result - the interplay is hellishly complicated, much more so than with capacitors. (Which explains why, in Basic Electronics 101, they introduce capacitors long before inductors. )

HTH




sumgai

[newey]

Have you had experience with the push/push pots before? I had one in the past & it was pretty crappy (it broke within the first week). It's entirely possible I just had a dud, but the quality of the unit from the beginning just seemed sub par.

No personal experience, but a lot of folks don't like the push/pull pots for the same reason, they seem a bit flimsy. Also, with a pot it can be tricky to push it without moving the knob around a bit and inadvertently adjusting one's volume or tone.

I was just considering the space saving aspect of it. A separate push switch is fine. I still don't see the advantage to the tone shaper thing, though- they've put it on a circuit board with some quick connectors for the soldering-challenged among us, but you'll be doing a boatload of soldering anyway, and a separate switch will take up less space than their circuit board will.

If you've settled definitely on the SP design, I'll take a look at the blower switch thing in the next few days when I get some time.

[JohnH]

I thought of a couple of issues with your intentions:

If you are interested in the SP design, you should bear in mind that M only is not one of its natural settings and I know that you want to have that. In my version I show a thing I call the 'fade' pot, which dials down one pickup in series mode, so you can get M-only using that, but you may have other intentions for your pots.

Out of the designs that I am familiar with(ie just 'cos I drew 'em, but not to rule out any other schemes out there), the nearest to what you seek, that could be adjusted to get the blower function, would be based on the 5+5 or Dual sound circuts. Both of these need a four-pole series/parallel switch. A three pole blower could then cut out the vol and tone controls, and force the neck on in parallel mode and NxMxB in series mode. (I dont see how to go from parallel mode straight to all in series).

Im not sure about finding the right switch for the blower. A toggle woudl be my choice, they are quick to flick and you can see where they are pointing. As a push/push, you'd want something like a 3 pole footswitch from an effect s pedal, but lighter in operation.

cheers
John

[reTrEaD]

Jan 30, 2012 4:29:31 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Jan 29, 2012 3:20:26 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

In regards to tone, putting any two in series will double the inductance and double the voltage.

Oh? Does Wheeler's Formula know about this?

I was under the impression that inductance was only one determining factor in the frequency response of a coil, at least insofar as guitar pickups are concerned. Used otherwise, such as a choke in a power supply, then doubling the inductance really has no bearing on the output voltage, except to smooth it out even more (remove ripple).

In practical terms, again in the guitar world, factors such as inductance, DC resistance, AC impedance, and other assorted "popular" buzz-words never have a 1-to-1 correspondance with the output level - several long-established formulae get in the way of that kind of wishful thinking.

Now if we were to consider flux, that'd be a different story.

Long story short, folks..... it all plays into the overall sound, or what we refer to as Mojo, but there are no hard and fast rules as to what factor yields which result - the interplay is hellishly complicated, much more so than with capacitors. (Which explains why, in Basic Electronics 101, they introduce capacitors long before inductors. )

HTH




sumgai

Don't read more into what I said than what I said, SG. I'm not suggesting that doubling the inductance doubles the voltage.

Putting two pickups in series doubles the inductance, since the internal inductances are in series. And it doubles the voltage because we have two sources in series.

[reTrEaD]

Jan 29, 2012 12:46:25 GMT -5 dioxic said:

Yeah, I'm aware it won't sound exactly like a HB, I'd be satisfied with something close. Unfortunately on my pickups the middle is the only RW/RP of the set. The hum wouldn't be too bad with the N*M*B, would it? I've seen many other people get great results.

When it comes to hum-canceling, you need two pickup coils of opposite magnetic polarity to cancel when they're connected in-phase. No matter what you do with three coils, two will be alike. Only one can be different from the other two.

John mentioned NxMxB on his guitar. We're talking Brian May territory here! Three SCs in series provides a lot of output. With 3 times the voltage, that's nearly twice as loud as one pickup alone. And plenty dark with 3 times the inductance. If one of the pickups is of opposite polarity to the other two, that means two of them hum-cancel. So you'd have about the same hum as a single coil with double the volume on the string sensing.

As an aside, Brian doesn't use a RWRP for any of his pickups. They're all the same magnetic polarity. But this as an advantage in a different set of circumstances. When two pickups of like polarity are out of phase, they hum-cancel. He use any two pickups out of phase with each other and have hum-canceling. Since out of phase pickups produce a very weak signal, hum-canceling is extremely valuable.


Regarding your blower switch:
Having whatever is selected on the 5-way OR having one designated pickup, when the blower switch is engaged would require two poles on the switch. Adding more than one pickup in the blower selection requires additional poles for the blower switch. In general, I think about 2 poles for each additional pickup.

[dioxic]

No personal experience, but a lot of folks don't like the push/pull pots for the same reason, they seem a bit flimsy. Also, with a pot it can be tricky to push it without moving the knob around a bit and inadvertently adjusting one's volume or tone.

I was just considering the space saving aspect of it. A separate push switch is fine. I still don't see the advantage to the tone shaper thing, though- they've put it on a circuit board with some quick connectors for the soldering-challenged among us, but you'll be doing a boatload of soldering anyway, and a separate switch will take up less space than their circuit board will.

If you've settled definitely on the SP design, I'll take a look at the blower switch thing in the next few days when I get some time.

I should've been clear that the reason I linked that initially is because I couldn't find the stand alone DPDT that I later found on their site. I'm perfectly okay with using that instead, in fact it probably makes more sense. Thanks for considering taking a shot at it, if you do you can just go with the Fender DPDT option instead if it's even possible. If not I suppose I'll have to go with a mini toggle!

I thought of a couple of issues with your intentions:

If you are interested in the SP design, you should bear in mind that M only is not one of its natural settings and I know that you want to have that. In my version I show a thing I call the 'fade' pot, which dials down one pickup in series mode, so you can get M-only using that, but you may have other intentions for your pots.

Out of the designs that I am familiar with(ie just 'cos I drew 'em, but not to rule out any other schemes out there), the nearest to what you seek, that could be adjusted to get the blower function, would be based on the 5+5 or Dual sound circuts. Both of these need a four-pole series/parallel switch. A three pole blower could then cut out the vol and tone controls, and force the neck on in parallel mode and NxMxB in series mode. (I dont see how to go from parallel mode straight to all in series).

Im not sure about finding the right switch for the blower. A toggle woudl be my choice, they are quick to flick and you can see where they are pointing. As a push/push, you'd want something like a 3 pole footswitch from an effect s pedal, but lighter in operation.

cheers
John

I'm not so big on the idea of having a fade pot as the way I'm planning it I've already used two pots & have one left as a master tone. The volume = Kill switch, Middle tone = Master tone or maybe a push/push pot, Last tone = Mid boost / scoop control.

I was taking a look at the 5+5 & dual sound setup scenarios and it does appear that both of those are a lot closer to what I'm interested in.

I'm okay with the idea of having the blower switch blow to the correlating mode i.e. single bridge in standard mode & pickups in series in the in series mode. I think it's a perfectly reasonable compromise.

I really dislike the look of mini toggles, but if it's the only option again I'm willing to compromise. Functionality over looks, right? I've been looking for something similar to a foot pedal switch like you suggested, but haven't found anything that looks like it'd be easier to press down. I'll continue to look.

When it comes to hum-canceling, you need two pickup coils of opposite magnetic polarity to cancel when they're connected in-phase. No matter what you do with three coils, two will be alike. Only one can be different from the other two.

John mentioned NxMxB on his guitar. We're talking Brian May territory here! Three SCs in series provides a lot of output. With 3 times the voltage, that's nearly twice as loud as one pickup alone. And plenty dark with 3 times the inductance. If one of the pickups is of opposite polarity to the other two, that means two of them hum-cancel. So you'd have about the same hum as a single coil with double the volume on the string sensing.

Well, if it works like John suggested, then it'd only jump to the three pickups in series when I'm already in series mode & at that point it'd only be adding one more pickup, not two. In that case I don't think the jump in output would be too terrible.

Regarding your blower switch:
Having whatever is selected on the 5-way OR having one designated pickup, when the blower switch is engaged would require two poles on the switch. Adding more than one pickup in the blower selection requires additional poles for the blower switch. In general, I think about 2 poles for each additional pickup.

I see, it looks like a DPDT switch is out of the running then! As lame as it is, unless I can find a pedal like switch as John suggested.

[santellan]

Hi Guys,

Newey was correct about the Toneshaper PP switch board being an equivalent to a PP dpdt pot. The advantage is the switch is almost flush in the down position and is only .1 taller in the up position so you never have to worry about it being in the way.

Plus it can be used as a volume or tone pot. As a volume pot it has a treble bleed circuit that can be switched off. If you use it as a tone pot then you can select one of the 7 cap values that it has via a dip switch.

I'm pretty sure I have a 4pdt push-push switch and switch cap in my bag of tricks that you can buy from digikey. I will look for it and let you know the part number.

[sumgai]

'Tread,

The idea is not to 'read too much into it', I'm capable of looking past the obvious. However, I need, and let me stress that, need to look out for those who do not have the background, the resources, nor the long-time experience that's necessary in order to "peek behind the curtains". In other words, we, The NutzHouse Gang, don't want other people and/or websites to think that we're spreading the Gospel as we see it, and all the while it's not anywhere near the truth. After all, there are other guitar-oriented sites out there, and some of those members are at least as bright as us Nutz, if not even more so. (Too bad we can't get them to come around more often.....) I really don't want them to consider us a second-rate source of information, I'm sure you'll understand.

All I'm trying to do here is stifle the obvious take-way, wherein you stated rather baldly - 'two coils in series equals double the inductance, therefore we'll get twice the output voltage'. I'm saying, without trying to get into a shouting match (nor do I want to go all 'math intensive on this topic, just to prove the point - most members here don't like that 'over the top' kind of thing), that your statement is patently false. In fact, all we need do, without any further ado, is simply ask our fellow Nutz this question:

Has anyone here ever experienced a doubling of volume when they've selected two (or more) pickups, compared to one pickup?

I suspect that the answer will be somewhat more negative than one might wish, were one to slavishly adhere to your earlier sentiment.

We could go further, but this is dioxic's topic, not mine. I trust that he, as well as other readers (now and in the future) is/are capable of discerning what we've meant in this little 'sidebar'.

</off-topic>





sumgai

[reTrEaD]

Jan 30, 2012 14:41:29 GMT -5 sumgai said:

'Tread,

The idea is not to 'read too much into it', I'm capable of looking past the obvious. However, I need, and let me stress that, need to look out for those who do not have the background, the resources, nor the long-time experience that's necessary in order to "peek behind the curtains". In other words, we, The NutzHouse Gang, don't want other people and/or websites to think that we're spreading the Gospel as we see it, and all the while it's not anywhere near the truth. After all, there are other guitar-oriented sites out there, and some of those members are at least as bright as us Nutz, if not even more so. (Too bad we can't get them to come around more often.....) I really don't want them to consider us a second-rate source of information, I'm sure you'll understand.

Absolutely.

Jan 30, 2012 14:41:29 GMT -5 sumgai said:

All I'm trying to do here is stifle the obvious take-way, wherein you stated rather baldly - 'two coils in series equals double the inductance, therefore we'll get twice the output voltage'.

I absolutely did not say "therefore". No cause and effect was even implied. If one wants to "take-way" more than what was stated, that's on them, not on me.

Jan 30, 2012 14:41:29 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I'm saying, without trying to get into a shouting match (nor do I want to go all 'math intensive on this topic, just to prove the point - most members here don't like that 'over the top' kind of thing), that your statement is patently false.

Then you would be wrong in that statement.

Jan 30, 2012 14:41:29 GMT -5 sumgai said:

In fact, all we need do, without any further ado, is simply ask our fellow Nutz this question:

Has anyone here ever experienced a doubling of volume when they've selected two (or more) pickups, compared to one pickup?

You'll definitely need to do more than that!
1 - You absolutely will NOT get double the volume when you add two pickups in series. You will get double the voltage. About 6dB increase in volume. Not double the volume, but definitely louder.
2 - You'll also have to specify that the pickups are selected in series with each other. Selecting them in parallel with each other will not be a valid comparison.

For instance, selecting neck and middle on a Standard Strat would be "selecting two pickups", but the pickups would not be in series with each other. Don't expect double the voltage and a 6dB increase in output. It doesn't fit my statement.

Jan 30, 2012 14:41:29 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I suspect that the answer will be somewhat more negative than one might wish, were one to slavishly adhere to your earlier sentiment.

My earlier statement was true, not "patently false".

If you want to split hairs about "double the voltage" I would concede that since both signals are not identical, the voltage won't be EXACTLY double. But the voltages do ADD when the pickups are in series. You absolutely WILL get an increase in output. And a darker tone, due to the increased inductance.

[D2o]

Now, retread, considering who just said "If you want to split hairs .....", is that not a capital bit of humor.

Cheers,
D2o

[dioxic]

Hi Guys,

Newey was correct about the Toneshaper PP switch board being an equivalent to a PP dpdt pot. The advantage is the switch is almost flush in the down position and is only .1 taller in the up position so you never have to worry about it being in the way.

Plus it can be used as a volume or tone pot. As a volume pot it has a treble bleed circuit that can be switched off. If you use it as a tone pot then you can select one of the 7 cap values that it has via a dip switch.

I'm pretty sure I have a 4pdt push-push switch and switch cap in my bag of tricks that you can buy from digikey. I will look for it and let you know the part number.

Hey Santellan, I was aware of the different cap values & bleed circuit, which are both desirable features, but that I can live without in the event that the Tone shaper doesn't work.

I'd grealy appreciate it if you could check on the status of the 4pdt push/push switch!

To reTrEaD & sumgai I don't mind your discussion, you're welcome to continue it, but is a bit off-topic. You guys might want to start another thread discussing it.

Thanks for all the help thus far guys!

[cynical1]

Jan 30, 2012 21:22:50 GMT -5 dioxic said:

...but is a bit off-topic...

Topic? We ain't got no topic. We don't need no topic! I don't have to show you any stinkin' topics!

...sorry, couldn't help myself...

HTC1

[ashcatlt]

You'd also want to specify that the two pickups' string-sensing output be in phase for the fundamental.

There are two many variables to put an exact number on it. Different pickup positions give different outputs due to differences in the distance of string excursion. Compensate for that by winding them hotter toward the bridge and then you've got more inductance at that end, so less high harmonic content. Then there's the whole phase cancellation thing... I guess splitting an SC sized HB is about the closest we could get to a "pure" test case.

I can say that every time I put two coils in series when the fundamentals are in phase it gets noticeably louder than either of the individual coils.

[newey]

Well, as for getting back on topic:

I'm not so big on the idea of having a fade pot as the way I'm planning it I've already used two pots & have one left as a master tone. The volume = Kill switch, Middle tone = Master tone or maybe a push/push pot, Last tone = Mid boost / scoop control.

OK, so you've decided on a basic layout of things. Now:

I was taking a look at the 5+5 & dual sound setup scenarios and it does appear that both of those are a lot closer to what I'm interested in.

Eventually, you'll need to pick one or the other of those schemes. But (as noted by reTrEaD and me), the blower switch will require more poles if you want to do more than one pickup in series, and also bypass the controls.

If you can live with the neck pup alone as the "blower option", then life is sweet, and a diagram will soon be forthcoming. If not the neck, then any single pickup, your choice.

But if multiple pups need to figure into the mix, then more complex switching is needed . . .

So, it seems, this is where we are at in terms of your options and the decisions you will need to make. I think that pretty much everything else will fall into place once the blower switch is decided upon.

[JohnH]

I just had a look on www.digikey.com and searched for 4pdt push-button switches. There were three pages of them!

One can do series parallel, and the other for the blower.

But which?

J

[dioxic]

Topic? We ain't got no topic. We don't need no topic! I don't have to show you any stinkin' topics!

...sorry, couldn't help myself...

HTC1

;D

Eventually, you'll need to pick one or the other of those schemes. But (as noted by reTrEaD and me), the blower switch will require more poles if you want to do more than one pickup in series, and also bypass the controls.

If you can live with the neck pup alone as the "blower option", then life is sweet, and a diagram will soon be forthcoming. If not the neck, then any single pickup, your choice.

But if multiple pups need to figure into the mix, then more complex switching is needed . . .

So, it seems, this is where we are at in terms of your options and the decisions you will need to make. I think that pretty much everything else will fall into place once the blower switch is decided upon.

Newey, I believe you're right. I'll decide on a wiring after I get back today from work, but as far as the blower switch goes I think I'll hold off a bit longer & see what comes of these 4PDT push buttons. Thanks!

I just had a look on www.digikey.com and searched for 4pdt push-button switches. There were three pages of them!

One can do series parallel, and the other for the blower.

But which?

J

WOW, I've been searchingi the wrong sites!

For those that're interested here they are search.digikey.com/us/en/cat/switches/pushbutton/1114209?k=4PDT

I'm not sure which of these form factors would be best fitting in a guitar. Perhaps one with a round top, unless one of the Fender or Tone Shaper style buttons would fit on top.

If you confine the search to round pushbuttons it narrows it down quite a bit, but I can't link to the more specialized search.

Is there a specific current rating / voltage I should be looking for? Also, what about function type? I always assumed I wanted an On - Off button, but all I see are On - On or On - Mom

[newey]

Is there a specific current rating / voltage I should be looking for? Also, what about function type? I always assumed I wanted an On - Off button, but all I see are On - On or On - Mom

The current and voltage generated by guitar pickups is minimal- fractions of a volt and fractions of an ampere. Any of the ones which are solder-lug connections will have more than enough of a rating for your purposes.

On-On switches can be wired for On-Off functionality by simply not wiring to one half of the switch. On- Off switches are just that, one trick ponies.

Your blower switch and series/parallel switch will both need to be On-On types.

A momentary switch, like your kill switch, operates only while the button remains pushed- good for kill switches but not useful for the other switches. Momentary acxtuation is designated by parentheses, i.e., "On-(On)" means a switch that is on in one position, with momentary actuation in the other position, so you want to stay away from those.

Electronics suppliers like Digi-key, Mouser, and Allied generally have much cheaper prices, and larger selections, than guitar parts houses do. I buy all my electronic parts from those places, not from guitar parts sellers, except for specialized items like the Superswitch which are hgenerally only available through guitar outfits.

Digi-Key, Mouser, et al. allow you to click through to the mfr's data sheets for the switch in question so that you can check the dimensions, specs, etc.