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Post by dannyhill on Sept 18, 2012 9:30:03 GMT -5
Hi John, I can do that later. But maybe the photos on this page are enough? guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=6516&page=1In the lower photo you see inside the guitar looking from the back the concentric pots to the RHS, the selectomatic (where the new 4P6T will sit) and the current blower switch (to be replaced with a new 4PDT) to the left of the selectomatic. The pups are lined up 90 degrees to that arrangement with the thick braided wires going to them. The access slot is covered by a plate which I have drilled 4 holes for 4 micro switches. As you can imagine, clearance is greatest over the blower, less so over the selectomatic and next to nothing over the pots. That way I expect to wire the parallel/series switch on the LHS, the MOP to the RH of that and then the neck and bridge phase switches to the RH of those. That do you? I can draw you a plan, but as they are not in the same plane... D |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 18, 2012 15:53:55 GMT -5
I really think you should do a diagram. Its needed not only so you can confirm which order and orientaion the switches are in, but also, in this case, how do they all fit, and that may need some measurements.
I see its the idea that some of the switches are on the back panel? One issue that will arise is that the design that we have two 4pdt switches. These are usually toggles, but on the back panel, as you have noted, slide switches are needed. Maybe 4 pole slide switches can be found, but can you put two 4pdt toggles on the front? I dont want to labour a point, but this issue might be another reason to lose the blower switch - then the series/parallel switch which is you most powerful control, can go in its place. leaving dpdt sliders on the back.
To wire it up, you will be having some wires within the cavity, connecting between the front panel controls, and some on the back plate, and then some which link the two. It will be interesting to see how many wires have to cross the gap, and maybe use a piece of multicore cable to keep them under control so you reduce the rats nest. (Old printer cable works well)
cheers John
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 19, 2012 3:20:09 GMT -5
Hi John,
I have a stack of 4PDT slide switches so no worry there.
OK, lets go with the parallel/series on the front. Makes sense.
MOP/N phase/B Phase/Tone cap switcher on the back. I actually have the latter 3 wired in position at the moment, although the MOP will need changing and the phasers are in/off/out.
I will try to get a diagram done tonight.
Cheers,
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 19, 2012 15:49:50 GMT -5
Hi John, I'm not sure what you need here from the diagram. I know everything will fit as I have measured all the spaces with regards to the components I have/ordered. You can see below the three controls sit on the front of the guitar with relation to the pickups and on the back you can see the control panel.   Cheers, Danny |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 19, 2012 16:46:48 GMT -5
so, based on last two posts:
front: vol/tone. rotary and series/parallel?
back: (left to right)MoP, neck phase, , bridge phase, tone cap selector?
or is it right to left?
Blower is gone. (is that right?)
It would all be clearer if this cango on a diagram - i will have a go and you can review, but I cant start the wiring layout until I have a clear diagram of switch layout.
John
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Post by JohnH on Sept 19, 2012 23:19:02 GMT -5
So, further to the above, this is the type of diagram I need:  Is it correct, and will the switch lugs be laid out something like that? the diagram is viewed from the back, as if the rear plate has been lifted off and turned over, and its being wired up. Ie MoP switch will end up nearest to the neck. For your cap selectpr, will that have two positions or three and are its lugs like that? John |
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 20, 2012 4:11:07 GMT -5
Hi John,
Looks good!
I would wire the front connections so that looking from above the guitar downwards, as if you were playing it:
Parallel/Series switch - Up is parallel mode/Down is series.
Pickup selector 4P6T switch - Going clockwise: position 1(B+N), 2,...6 (B)
On the back as you look at the switches, from LEFT to RIGHT:
MOP - (Closest to neck) Down is middle out of circuit/up is middle in circuit
NPhase - Down is in phase/Up is out of phase
BPhase - Down is in phase/Up is out of phase
Cap switch - on/off/on switch, down is 0.1uF cap/centre is combined caps in series or 0.033/up is 0.047uF cap. Its lugs are how you have drawn it.
One last thing. You drew the MOP as a DPDT. Of course its a 4PDT. The ones I have look like two DPDTs in tandem, of course connected to one switch. They are sized so their fixing holes ALMOST line up with the on/on and on/off/ons, except for 1-2mm. So for wiring purposes they have the same foot print.
Still need a drawing?
D
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Post by JohnH on Sept 20, 2012 4:33:17 GMT -5
OK, that seems fine - Ill go with the layout that I sketched, following your comments as to directions o movement. Toggles, such as the 4-pole toggle that will be the series/parallel switch, connect to the lower lugs when you flick the switch up, while slide switches, such as the ones on the back panel, connect in the same direction as the lever movement, so Ill take that into account.
Also, the MoP switch only needs to be dpdt, so I'll draw it like that and you can ignore half of the switch if you prefer to use a 4pdt.
J
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 20, 2012 5:30:59 GMT -5
Hi John,
Sorry, I thinking that there had to be two 4PDTs in the circuit so as we removed the blower, I had in mind the other had to be the MOP.
Better still, more clearance at the back.
ONE CHANGE.
Lets do: N MOP B CAP
As that is how I have it currently wired and its easy for my feeble mind to remember their functions if they follow the pup order: N M B....
D
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Post by JohnH on Sept 20, 2012 7:05:28 GMT -5
oK, that all sounds good. I will update the schematic, then I can do the wiring diagram
J
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Post by JohnH on Sept 21, 2012 0:24:00 GMT -5
Here is an update to the schematic:  On the diagram, I started to think about the wires that will need to cross from the back plate to the main cavity - and I think its worth limiting those to the minimum required. So this is drawn with dashed lines for those links. Im thinking you will proceed by, first, wiring each switch with links between its own lugs, then do the wires within the cavity only, and between back-plate switches only, then the wires than join the two, then connect the pickups It looks like the pickups will be attached only to switch lugs on the back-plate. Blower is gone (yay!), tone cap selector is in, using one half of a dpdt. As you describe that switch, offering 0.1, 0.033 and 0.047, its all fine - the math works out and that's how Ive drawn it. But are those the three best cap values that you want? 0.1uF is very large for a tone cap and 0.033uF is not so much less than 0.047uF. Using the same on/off/on switch and three caps, they can be configured to give any three overall values that you choose. To do that, the smallest chosen value is hard wired, and the switch then adds one or other of the remaining caps in parallel to give the desired values. As an example, if it was for me, Id probably start with a max value of say 0.047, have a much lower min value, maybe 0.008uF, and set the in-between value being the square root of the ratio between max and min eg 0.008 xsqrt(47/8)= 0.018. This will give three audibly equal spaced values of roll-off frequency. Actual caps would be 0.0082, 0.01 and 0.039. These 2 or 3 caps and their arrangement will be easy to change, since it will all be local to the switch on the back plate. BTW, as you roll down a tone pot, the value of the tone cap makes very little difference to the sound until you get well into the second half of the pot turn. Above that value, its much more about the resistance of the pot than the value of the cap. Also, you are getting a new rotary switch? Do you have a catalogue reference to it? cheers John EDIT 22/9/12 diagram fixed in response to comments below |
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 21, 2012 3:45:37 GMT -5
Hi John, Things are moving forwards Just one thing, you remember my previous email: "Hi John, This all looks fabulous. I don't know how you do it really! Just a few things though. Did we not agree: Series: BxN, BxMxN(*), NxM, MxNbypass, MxB, BxNbypass Seems you have: Series: BxN, NxM, BxMxN(*), MxNbypass, MxB, BxNbypass" Forget to update this? ;-) The rotary switch is this: www.ebay.es/itm/1-4pole-6step-ROTARY-SWITCH-Attenuator-Pot-Potentiometer-Volume-Control-DIY-/320953846979?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4aba570cc3With regard to the caps, I think I need to make clear that these are Dano lipstick pickups, so they are bright/low output thereby needing high cap values, just like back in the 50s/60s. Currently with 100K volume / 1MEG tone and stock 0.1uF they are BRIGHT. I am going to up the pots to 250/500 which will give a brighter high end still, but on rolling off the tone pot the tonal change is more even, cutting deeper down at 2-4. At the moment it is on, no change down to 2 or 3 when suddenly the tone drops, almost on/off. So, 0.047 will leave it quite bright at 5, and 0.033 will be quite shrill. That make sense? Cheers, D |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 21, 2012 4:33:43 GMT -5
Yes I still forgot to swap those settings - no problem.
On that rotary, do you know how the four poles are arranged? Like, are the poles evenly spaced around the perimeter, ie on each layer, going say clockwise is it ,
pole 123456 pole 123456
Or might it be
123456 pole pole 123456
I'd guess the first.
Fine with the caps..just checking you get the best options
J
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 21, 2012 5:12:59 GMT -5
OK, John.
No idea about the 4P6T, not even got it yet! :-)
My new concentric pot arrived broken too. Hopefully they will finally answer me and get one to me by end of next week.
Build can begin from 5th Oct onwards.
D
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Post by JohnH on Sept 21, 2012 16:31:48 GMT -5
I had a peer at the pictures of the rotary:  and compared it to some other similar ones where all the lugs are around the perimeter. It seems probably that the lugs for the 1 to 6 positions are equally spaced, two sets of two on each layer, and the pole lugs are squeezed between the first two of them, which you can see on the right (three closely spaced lugs). Also, it would seem likely that the pair of screws that hold the switch together also separate the two sets of connections on each layer. So, I'll assume that is the case in order to start a diagram, and you can confirm when it arrives. (I need to finish in the next few days while I'm on leave, or else Ill get caught up in work again and it will take longer) Cheers J |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 23, 2012 6:18:28 GMT -5
Here is the wiring diagram, which will need more checking before use:  As in the layout sketch, its drawn from the back as you wire it up. the neck is to the left. the rear panel has been turned over so its upside down as you see it to do the wiring. The Tone pot is the rear pot and the front knob. The rotary is tricky to draw, in a way that allows the wiring to be added to it, so i had to use some license. While the real switch has two similar layers of lugs around the outside, the diagram moves the outer layer from the edge of the switch to the back, shown as small squares. The inner layer is shown as lugs projecting outwards. the common poles are darker. When you get the switch, we need to check the info on it against my assumption on where the poles are. Anyway, take a look and see if you can work with this. I have indicated where the switch lever/knob positions will be for each setting , based on your description. Please check them, noting the rear plate is upside down. cheers John EDIT 24/9/12 diagram updated following checking |
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Post by newey on Sept 23, 2012 7:51:49 GMT -5
OK, John, this is a beast for sure! Dano, you've got your work cut out!
The DPDT switches and the pot wiring all check out. The S/P switch and the rotary, I'm still looking at those, of course that's the hard part here!
One question, though. The blue wire from the S/P switch to the rotary, from the second lug on the top-most pole- does that connect to the commons of the right-hand rotary pole? It looks like it does since the color then changes to black before connecting to lug #2 of that rotary pole but I wanted to be sure.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 23, 2012 8:18:00 GMT -5
OK, John, this is a beast for sure! Dano, you've got your work cut out! The DPDT switches and the pot wiring all check out. The S/P switch and the rotary, I'm still looking at those, of course that's the hard part here! One question, though. The blue wire from the S/P switch to the rotary, from the second lug on the top-most pole- does that connect to the commons of the right-hand rotary pole? It looks like it does since the color then changes to black before connecting to lug #2 of that rotary pole but I wanted to be sure. Newey, thanks for reviewing this. Yes that is the intention. Cheers John |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 23, 2012 16:35:30 GMT -5
I just updated the wiring diagram above, following checking it again this morning. I had hot wires from B and N phase switches swapped.
cheers
J
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 24, 2012 17:00:00 GMT -5
Looking good!
Incidentally, whats with the resistor on the 4P6T?
D
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Post by JohnH on Sept 24, 2012 18:57:10 GMT -5
Looking good! Incidentally, whats with the resistor on the 4P6T? D That resistor is used in the Nbypass settings, to reduce the amount of neck present in two of the series modes. When I tried this with single coils of about 5k resistance, I found a 12k resistor worked well. It would be worth experimenting to taste however - Id guess that a similar ratio to your neck pup resistance would give similar results to mine. A lower value will reduce N more. Can also try a cap instead, maybe 0.022 to 0.082. John |
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 25, 2012 4:32:44 GMT -5
Hi John,
The rotary switch has arrived and it is as you say.
I don't have any 12k resistors, but 0.022 caps yes.
Any difference?
Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by JohnH on Sept 25, 2012 5:11:16 GMT -5
Hi John, The rotary switch has arrived and it is as you say. I don't have any 12k resistors, but 0.022 caps yes. Any difference? Cheers, Daniel It will make a difference to the sound, but I really like the cap-bypassed effect. It's hard to be sure of what will sound best, but you might find that something larger, such as 0.047, or two of the 0.022's in parallel might be good. It would be best if you can work towards being able to test a few options before finally confirming |
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Post by dannyhill on Sept 25, 2012 10:55:02 GMT -5
I have 0.033 and 0.047uF on hand too!
D
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Post by dannyhill on Oct 7, 2012 12:31:06 GMT -5
Hi John,
Well I'm struggling!
I'm using thin shielded jumper leads so when I problem solve just a little tension can break the connections anyway.
Where am I now.
First I noticed the MOP was wired upside down, should be on in up position like the out of phase changes on the bridge and neck. Anyway I can go and solve that when I solve this:
Parallel: 1 to 6 -
Bridge and neck
Neck
Neck
Nothing
Neck and bridge
Bridge
Series: 1 to 6 -
nothing in any
I get continuity between hot middle pup wire and hot jack in parallel, middle position.
With the MOP on I get B+M in positon 6, so the M pup is working.
So somewhere in the parallel circuit the neck seems to be getting wired to both middle and neck poles.
I will check the connections on SW2 and SW1 later after a rest, but can you check the wiring scheme to make sure its ok based on this new information.
Modified:
Can you confirm that in the SW1 wiring scheme, the purple wire from the 4PDT goes to the upper/inner lug AND then the outer/lower lug you have labelled as 3? That is how I have interpreted you diagram.
Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Oct 7, 2012 17:43:55 GMT -5
Hi again John,
Well I took a look through the SW1 wiring schematic, and if I understand correctly how these things work, well somethings just don't look right.
(1) Well I wasn't getting middle in any parallel no MOP positions right? Well I saw that having the purple wires from the 4PDT go to the inner layer common pole on the LHS means that in positions 4, 5, 6 (middle, m+b, b) the hot middle pup would connect to hot neck pup via the inner layer common pole ont he RHS. So I removed that connection and problem solved, I also get middle and bridge (I think) where it should be.
(2) The bridge hot finds its way to the number 3 inner layer RHS and therefore onto the neck hot in position 3 (neck and middle). Maybe that explains why I now get bridge and neck where I should get neck and middle?
(3) Is there more?
Let me know as I have spent 20 hours over this w/end so far, and would love to finish it before the family come back next w/end.
Cheers,
D
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Post by JohnH on Oct 7, 2012 17:53:06 GMT -5
Danny - congrats on your perseverance. Im at work today (its mionday morning)but will have a look through later. In the meantime, could you list again what works and what doesnt, with the wiring as you currently have it.
Also, it is very helpful if you can measure resistance across a guitar cord plugged in, in each setting (volume and tone at full).
btw..your 20 hours is about the same as I spent working it out.
John
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Post by dannyhill on Oct 7, 2012 18:29:36 GMT -5
Hi John,
Off to bed now, late for Sunday night, but earlier than last two.
I will be at work later but will check when I get home.
Keep in mind that the middle pup although listed as a higher DC resistance is an alnico 2 and probably lower gauss as it has always been weaker. I have it set high up to balance the other two.
One option is to go back to the original and open it up and make it RWRP, but lets get the rest of the wiring sorted first eh ;-)
BTW You list p and s on SW2, are those connection indications or toggle indications? I'm guessing the latter as when the throw is down as drawn below the negative end of the pups are sent to ground.
If I get a chance at work I may draw out the individual circuits for each throw of the rotary switch, to check through.
BTW I can't see why the cap/resistor on SW1 should be where it is. It appears to be in the circuit even in parallel positions...
More later,
D
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Post by JohnH on Oct 8, 2012 6:22:05 GMT -5
yes there is definately something amiss with the schematic, despite quite a lot of checking that I did - eg B and N hots are getting joined in position 3, in parallel mode, when they shouldnt be. Will need to trace it out some more to find the best solution.
It will need some reworking, so I suggest holding off the soldering iron for now, but those tests might be helpful.
John
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Post by dannyhill on Oct 8, 2012 8:40:30 GMT -5
OK.
I will runs some checks, it would be easier for me to connect directly to the jack, that ok?
D
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