Is my crazy Strat wiring idea possible?

[JohnH]

Oct 8, 2012 8:40:30 GMT -5 dannyhill said:

OK.
I will runs some checks, it would be easier for me to connect directly to the jack, that ok?

D

yes thats fine, thanks
J

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

Did I mention how delicate the wiring is?
Everytime I roate the switch or turn something over cause a reading is funny there is good chance a thin connection will fray/and snap.
Of course once its bolted onto the guitar no problem, which I had over the weekend.
So anything you can decipher from the following and your schematic all the better. I've already seen that I probably need to start over on the on/on micro switches as I've applied too much tension on the lugs and they wobble - 'noise generators'.
Here's the meter (it had a low battery hence been chasing ghosts the past two hours) readings:
Position/Parallel/Series/Parallel MOP/Series MOP
1 / 1.88 / 13.28 / 1.44 / 3.34
2 / 3.8 / 13.29 / 2.33 / 3.34
3 / 1.88 / 13.3 /1.43 / 3.35
4 / 3.79 / 13.3 / 2.34 / 3.34
5 / 1.44 / 9.72 / 0 / 2.34
6 / 6 / 13.3 / 0 / 3.35

This fits with a tap test of
Parallel:
N & B
N
N &B
M
M & B
B (why 6KOhm here??, mind you why 13.3 in series?)

Will other position tap tests help?

Now I know the pups are wired as per your diagram.
The middle is about 6k (DC Res) and the other two around 3-4K (the boxed original middle should be similar).

Remember this is all the same as your diagram EXCEPT my purple from the 4PDT to the rotary goes sraight to the upper lug number three and there is connection to the lower common pole.
Night!

D

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

I'm kinda mad at myself for not going through your diagram earlier and madder still for taking the rotary switch as you suggested it could be. I really should have checked the connections before I wired it as it looks like, from a DC resistance point of view, that 3 and 5, and 4 and 6 are 'reversed'. That would explain the high DC on 'our' position 6 and why our 5 is the equivalent of bridge in parallel with neck and that in parallel with the middle as neck and bridge in parallel (3.8 in parallel with 3.8) is 1.88!
What I don't understand is why the tap test doesn't agree with this. Admittedly I did this late last night with with de-soldered jack connections held in place, balancing the guitar under my arm and the screwdriver in my other hand so maybe I hit the wrong thing?

So it looks like to really know what is going on I am going to have de-solder everything on the rotary and check the connections with a multimeter.
Now, I can do that first or I can re-do the tap test this time with soldered connections?

Irrespective of all this, it does still seem that even with everything wired correctly, there are some connections to correct on your scheme so that we get everything we wanted. How is it going with that?
Cheers,

D

[JohnH]

Danny
The issues with the diagram I think are related to the series options on the rotary, which are controlled by poles A and B , which I think are nearest to the face plate on the switch.. I have sketched a solution, and am updating the schematic.

We do need to be confident in the switch though. Did any data come with it?

On other questions. The labels on the switches refer to the position of the knobs and levers, eg s and p refer to the lever position on the toggle switch. Everything is drawn as you wire it up, looking from the back, with the rear plate flipped over. So the toggle switch is the right way up as seen from the back, but the 4slide switches are upside down.

You noted that you are using shielded wire, and that connections are breaking. Guitars are usually wired with normal wire, flexible is best, of whatever thickness is most convenient. If you are concerned by excess noise, you can screen the cavity. Shielded wire is only any use if the shield is grounded. the inner core can be very fine and a more robust wire may be better.

Please be patient. This is one of the most complex wiring designs I have ever seen, to get the features that you want. And it has not been built before so there are teething troubles Expected. but when it all works it will be great.

John

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

No data with the switch.
Should I de-solder and 'de-code' it via the multimeter?
I'm trawling the net for a diagram in vain.

Ok on the labels.
The wires are not overly flexible, but as this is a hollowbody I would prefer shielded wires. I broke 4 or 5 so far but have another 8-10 in stock just in case and I have ordered some more. I can live with them. :-)

Patience is not something I excel in :-) but if I had checked out the switch and wiring diagram last week I could have taken full advantage of an empty home this week. But, maybe we can still sort this out this week. :-)

Cheers,

Daniel

[dannyhill]

GOOD NEWS!!!!

I checked the continuity between the upper lugs (squares) on the LHS and its pole in each position of the rotary switch. They do agree with how you have labelled it! I assume the lugs underneath will be arranged in the same fashion and the RHS is a mirro reflection of the LHS?

D

[JohnH]

Oct 9, 2012 12:15:30 GMT -5 dannyhill said:

GOOD NEWS!!!!

I checked the continuity between the upper lugs (squares) on the LHS and its pole in each position of the rotary switch. They do agree with how you have labelled it! I assume the lugs underneath will be arranged in the same fashion and the RHS is a mirro reflection of the LHS?

D

good - but a better description of the LHS/RHS would be that one is 180 degrees rotated, ie the lugs 1 to 6 are in the same clockwise or anticlockwise direction.

[dannyhill]

Yes, quite right.
Sorry for the confusion.
Are sure it would be that way tough? COuld the RHS be reversed?

[JohnH]

A good question but it would be almost impossible to make a rotary switch where the lugs from some poles were set out 1-6 clockwise while others had anticlockwise, because inside, the wipers for each pole are connected to the same shaft and all moving together. It would mean quite a number of internal connections flipped and crossed for no good reason.

A more likely watch-it would be to make sure that the division between the lugs for one pole and another matches the diagram, ie, lug 1 for Pole A is next to lug 6 for Pole B, and I assumed based on the pictures, that the common pole connections are between lugs 1 and 2.

Ill be at work until v late tonight, so probably no more progress from me today.
J

[dannyhill]

OK, I'll check the other 3 distributions later.

[dannyhill]

Hi,

The RHS upper and lower check out as you had them labelled.
Cheers,

D

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

Any news?
I'm going to start another minor mod, although on an archtop tomorrow while we are trying to figure this out. Gotta tak advantage whilst the young family is away.

D

[dannyhill]

Hi again,

Last night/this morning I was checking through the wiring diagram and there does seem to be certain inconsistencies such as the bridge hot coming through in all positions in series as it is tied to the sole series output to SW2.

I realised I had printed out the old circuit diagram the first time I posted this message so now checking through the circuit diagram, it does seem that the circuit diagram was transposed correctly to the wiring diagram.

I will try to go through it and see what else might not work in case that helps for working up a good one.

Modification:
Been looking through this. Not trivial. But one useful insight might be that the diagrams are setup so that in series the middle -ve is tied to ground with neck and/or bridge following it. However for the Nbypass to work does it not need to be in the chain before M or B?

Second Modification:

Agggghh. I've spent all day on this and no closer. Can't see how you can use the 4PDT and 4P6T together for series and parallel combos.
I get so close then I realise that everything has to go through a certain pickup or I get cross-overs between parallel and series.
I feel I could spend weeks on this and still not get there. There has to be some method?

Many thanks for your continuing efforts. But this is depressing me.

D

[JohnH]

Hi Danny - sorry for fewe replies the last few days.

I reckon the least I can do is show you some progress:



Its not done yet =- but I think, the parallel settings, MoP switch abd 5 out of 6 series settings are OK. Position 4, one of the N bypass settings is being troublesome - but I think this is one of he least important sounds, and maybe a slightly differnt variation will work there.

Do you follow these schematics? if so, you could have a go at tracing a few settings. This type of diagram is needed before fixing the wiring layout.

cheers

John

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

You've added a little light on my day!
Looking good.
I'm going to bed soon, I'll take a look tomorrow morning.
Good luck and thanks a million so far!

D

[JohnH]

OK, so stand by till the morning. Im just checking a further update now, which so far looks (cautiously) like it does the whole set.
J

[JohnH]

It’s just possible that this may be OK!



I’m really hoping that you can follow it – since as we have found, it needs more than a check from me. To help with this, I thought Id step through the design intent:

So, the switches are coded by colour – eg both halves of Sw6 (MoP) have a green ‘wiper’

On the rotary, poles A and B cut out or bypass pickups in series mode, and do nothing in parallel mode.
Check that point– as drawn, the S/P switch (SW2 black wiper) is set to parallel, and it should be the case that all connections to poles A and B are either not connected at all, or grounded.

Sticking with parallel mode – see the MoP switch Sw6, as drawn, its off, if it moves up, the hot side of the M pup is forced to hot – also the lower side of the N pup is grounded again. Its already grounded in parallel mode, but in series mode, this repairs the ‘Chain’ of hot-B-N-M-ground.

In parallel mode, poles C and D are making the selections, between them picking one or two pickups. The poles of C and D are joined by the S/P switch in parallel mode to combine their outputs, but they are separated in series mode, so C and D do not have an effect in series mode.

When we flick the S/P switch, the lower two poles move the cold side of N from ground to M hot, and the cold side of the B pup from ground to the hot side of N – hence creating the chain, with M at the ground side. The top pole of the S/P switch Sw2, forces the hot side of the B pup to the output in series mode.

Now returning to poles A and B, in series mode. Pole A, which was grounded in parallel mode, is now at the cold side of N, and the hot side of M. Pole B, similarly, is between N hot and B cold. As we move through settings 1 to 6 in series mode, poles A and B shunt parts of the series chain.

The B pup needs to be removed from settings 3 and 4, and pole B does this by taking its cold side to hot on Sw2.
M gets shunted out of settings 1 and 6, by pole A, which connects the hot side of M to ground.
N gets removed fully in setting 5 – by connecting poles A and B together, hence bypassing N

Now the series Nbypass settings – two resistors this time (or caps if you wish, or one of each).
In setting 4, we have already removed B, and Pole A also connects, via R2, the cold side of the B pup (which is also N hot in series mode), to N cold, so part bypassing it.
In setting 6, N hot is taken to ground, via R1 and pole A – M has already been taken out.

Series setting 2 – Poles A and B not connected, so no shunting and all three pups are active in the chain.

Phase switches – hopefully no problem there.

So – to check, see if the above seems to work, and can you find any more gremlins?

cheers

John

[newey]

OK, my head is swimming . . .

Seriously, what I've traced so far (maybe a third or so) looks good, I didn't spot any issues, but I'll have to give this a good long look.

We need all schematic vetters to aisle 12!

However, you should label the two lower poles of S2. As it is, it's not clear that's a 4P switch, unless one consults the legend.

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier, had a nightmare of a day.
I will check through this before I go to sleep and reply tomorrow morning.
I have to spend most of tomorrow cleaning so this might have to get shelved for a few days and then gradually worked on bit by bit day by day.
Cheers,

D

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

Just going through the series, if I understand as drawn the MOP is off and the bottom two central switches are part of SW2?
If so it seems that in position 1:
I have NXBXM, although the hot side of M is held to ground too, that makes it NXB then?

In position 2 the middle pickup is connected in series: and NXMXB.

Position 3:
Seems the hot connects both to hot and cold end of bridge pup, does that remove it from the chain, if so we have BXM here.

Position 4:
Only M and N here with N in parallel with the resistor before entering M, is this how bypass works? I assumed it was in series with the pups.

Position 5:
Similarly the neck pup is connected to hot at both ends so I guess Shunted(?) out of the circuit? BXM


Position 6:
Similarly the middle pup is connected to hot at both ends so I guess Shunted(?) out of the circuit? Resistor in parallel with N pup after B pup - BXNbypass

If I get time later today/tomorrow I will check some more, what haven't you checked yet?


D

[JohnH]

Danny

Yes, all agreed - it looks like you have carefully traced the series modes through and they check out.

Position 3 is NxM (ie as you noted, B is connected to hot at both ends so shunted out). And the removal of M from Position 6 is done by connecting both ends to ground rthaer than hot.

I chjecked all the settings, but its easy to miss something.

But maybe it is now heading in the right directon.

Today I have reworked the wiring diagram, which needs its own checks, so Ill post it when I think it might be right.

cheers and thanks
John

[dannyhill]

No, thanks to you!

Look forward to seeing the wiring diagram.
Putting the bits away now, hopefully not for too long.
Cheers,

Daniel

[JohnH]

OK, this may be it:

Schematic - same circuit as before with a few more labels for Sw2, parts a b c and d. Also, coloured ground and hot, blue and red respectively:



And here is the wiring:



I've checked it twice against the schematic, but see if you can confirm.

Good luck!

If you want the Word file (which is what I draw these with), let me know your email on a PM

cheers

John

BTW - was thinking about wire types I think if it was for me, Id use unshielded wire except for any long runs, and put foil (grounded) on the inside of the front and back plates. Its still helpful even if it doesn't do the whole cavity. Then you can use a more robust wire, without having to ground all the braids of screened wire.

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

I will see if I can't get this made up before the w/end.
Incidentally there is a thin green zig-zag line from 6 to 1 on the lower half of the rotary schematic. Is that significant?

D

[JohnH]

Oct 16, 2012 9:12:23 GMT -5 dannyhill said:

Hi John,

I will see if I can't get this made up before the w/end.
Incidentally there is a thin green zig-zag line from 6 to 1 on the lower half of the rotary schematic. Is that significant?

D

You are looking carefully! - that is not part of the diagram - I think it is Word trying to do a 'grammar check' on the text box where I wrote the numbers 6 1.

Good with the build.
J

[dannyhill]

Thanks!

I started the build last night, removing most of the connections, leaving those just on the rotary common to both and changed a dpdt. I also inverted the MOP so its off in down position.
Hopefully tonight I can connect all wires to parallel/series, rotary and then vol/tone pots - plug and play.
Will let you know how I get on.

D

[ashcatlt]

Oct 16, 2012 14:24:13 GMT -5 JohnH said:

You are looking carefully! - that is not part of the diagram - I think it is Word trying to do a 'grammar check' on the text box where I wrote the numbers 6 1.

Good with the build.
J

Apparently you also spelled the number "3" wrong!

[dannyhill]

+/- connections made.
Grounds tonight, insert components, plug in and play?

D

[dannyhill]

Hi John,

Well, I almost had it, had some wrong combos in series and possibly b and M in parallel was b + n. Swapped a wire, checked series, I think all good. Middle is very quiet. It is a quiet pup although rated at 6k instead of the others at 3.8k. I have it jacked right up close to the strings balance volume with neck and bridge, so I may have to do some DIY on the original middle pup to make it RWRP.
But between trying to check/improve the middle pup wiring connections and soldering the shielding wires together I first lost all series positions were B featured and B in B+N. Then I lost B+N too.

Like a tenacious idiot I stayed up until silly O'clock trying to solve it.

Anyway this weekend, I'm going to make up a little board to hold the components in, that will stop stress on the connections when using the rotary switch. That will help a lot! Why didn't I think it before?
Then I need to problem solve.
I guess a starting point will be the connections to the poles and also the connections on the parallel/series switch.
Either I've made a wrong/bad connection in re-wiring or I have a shield wire in contact with a hot and/or ground either just touching or soldered.


Cheers,

Daniel

[JohnH]

Mornin' Danny!

Wirings fun isnt it?

I'd suggest getting all the parallel settings going first, then check the MoP then the series

John