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Post by ChrisK on Sept 15, 2009 13:16:16 GMT -5
Oh yeah, you betcha. Now, when I just posted: "This design from our archives uses the standard Fender 5-way lever switch and a DPDT switch to realize the combinations noted. Use the last drawing in the initial post. 3 Single Coils and The "S-None Switch". With the addition of a simple wire, using The FREE Neck On Switch, one can realize all three pickups on in the parallel mode. In the series mode, one can realize the (B+N)*M combination as well. This can also be done in a binary manner with a SPST switch, although the use of the third terminal on a tone pot enables some blending." which, although it pretty much spelled out exactly what and how to do things, it wasn't the least bit clear until we took a look at; guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=4411&page=3#39562which clearly shows exactly what to do even though it's a fairly exact copy of my S-None switch design with my copyright removed. I guess that placing a copyright in a design has a mind-blinding effect on humans. I'm clearly wasting my time on this board. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 12, 2009 22:35:58 GMT -5
tedfixxOh all right.  Here's the cap shunting and series/parallel wobbulator. You get to figure out the tone control high-cut/low-cut switching. You could just rework this. 
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 12, 2009 21:52:31 GMT -5
Nah, that'd be like cheating or something. "Denken Sie es durch." No, it's possible, it just depends on how resolute one is. There's a new drug being tested by the FDA; it portends to extend human life into hundreds of years, but will take forever to test. Fractals are a mathematical means of generating and representing such objects. If an island had an infinite length perimeter, one might presume that it also had infinite area. There are fractal generators that generate 3D objects with infinite surface area but zero volume. There are other generators that generate objects with zero surface area but infinite volume (oh wait, that's a black hole). These will demagnetize your pickups. Just don't get too close. Schwarzschild radius Karl Schwarzschild |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 12, 2009 21:24:53 GMT -5
Huh? Oooooh, you mean the twin humbucker (designed by Seth Lover after Fender poached him from Gibson, but he made them Fender bright - half-coils on the shell anyone), 2 volume 2 tone 3-way switch alder body Strat neck "gee we wish that we could compete with the Gibson SG" only Tele-looking Tele.   ;D Well, the spacey phase expansion/cancellation will occur in the brains of the audience, to varying degrees, depending on where they are seated. I do hope that you are playing in a steel safety cage. After all, not all listeners are capable of processing stereo audio signals, especially when "oh, that's just not right."  Back in the '60s, when I was in the military, I connected an 8 Ohm speaker in series with a 50 Ohm rheostat and mounted both within a cubic yard triple corrugated cardboard box (wood was tough to hew during the Alaskan winters). I did this as I'd heard that certain Beatle songs had common, but out of phase tracks for certain instruments. It really did create almost a third channel (the stereo separation sucked, the third speaker was bridging the power amps), but it was quite entertaining to the masses that had only heard stereo before. It was a really big hit with the missile launch crews (their only hope for excitement in life was bad in oh so many ways) and kept them occupied until the seizures started. But, with nukyaler warheads, close enough is usually close enough anyways. Slightly later in time, Lafayette Electronics decided that quadreo was the way to goeo. They were so certain that they invested all of their seed corn in it and fairly promptly went bankrupt. Apparently 2 1/2 was ok, but 4 was a crowd. I did learn several business lessons from this, primarily to get to the store very early as the best clearance items went fast, until they were all gone. I noticed some years ago that B. B. King's Epi signature model is a stereo output guitar. While this has enthralled his listeners for many years, do take note that he hasn't been able to sing and play at the same time since. Caveat Operemptor. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 12, 2009 19:50:21 GMT -5
However, there is NOTHING that can be done to prevent a second, open-ended cable from opening the speaker circuit (inter-cabinet series).
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 12, 2009 19:25:19 GMT -5
Red Rhodes (Peavey) Tone_Coil Split PotCCW is the normal high-cut function across the entire pickup. CW (above aboot "7") is the high-cut shunting function (use two caps). You know, like switching the shunting cap to the center tap when in intra-pickup series. The tone pot has two functions when in intra-pickup series, and one when in intra-pickup parallel. These, along with the high-cut/low-cut switching gives 5ive functions. 2 ^2.3219280948873623478703194294894 = 5iveHoly fractalized dimensions Batman! Julia sets rule!
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 11, 2009 23:34:07 GMT -5
Yep. Likely. Not in this GeDankengang. This appears to infer that when in series high-cut mode, the high-cut tone function is a'shunting a half. This also seems to infer that when in series low-cut mode, the entire pickup is passing through the low-cut filter. Parallel high-cut - there is a high-cut RC tone control across the output bus. Parallel low-cut - there is a low-cut RC tone control in series with the output bus. Series high-cut - there is a high-cut RC tone control across one half of the split pickup. Series low-cut - there is a low-cut RC tone control in series with the output bus. This is four states. There are two binary switches. Keep in mind that series/parallel actually requires only 3/4ths of a DPDT switch.   This isn't pertinent to this issue, I just thought that I'd mention it. (Oh, all right. It requires a SPDT section for one pickup and a SPST section for the other.) This leaves a switching action available in the series mode. This means, with simple terminal redistribution, that something additional can be switched to signal ground, pickup hot output, or the center tap when in series. "Denken Sie es durch." In this GeDankengang, since there is the questionable desire to capacitively shunt one half of a split P-Bass pickup when in series, and to avoid such outrage when in parallel, the mere act of connecting the high-cut tone control across the shuntee will effect said shunting of one pickup half when in series, and both pickup halves when they're in parallel'ski. This requires 0 poles of a DPDT switch. ;D Keep in mind that the act of using a normal right-hand taper high cut RC series tone control to shunt said pickup will have the effect occurring at the CCW end of rotation. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 11, 2009 22:32:59 GMT -5
tedfixxThis design from our archives uses the standard Fender 5-way lever switch and a DPDT switch to realize the combinations noted. Use the last drawing in the initial post. 3 Single Coils and The "S-None Switch". With the addition of a simple wire, using The FREE Neck On Switch, one can realize all three pickups on in the parallel mode. In the series mode, one can realize the (B+N)*M combination as well. This can also be done in a binary manner with a SPST switch, although the use of the third terminal on a tone pot enables some blending. There are no dead positions in this design. If you want to hear what it sounds like, go play a Fender American Deluxe Strat with three single coils and the S-1 switch. I like how they sound (which is why I have some and came up with all this S-None " nonesense").   And then there's the S-2 switch............. 
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 11, 2009 21:32:15 GMT -5
This infers that both speaker cabinets must be in inter-cabinet series, and not intra-cabinet series.
JohnH's design does this, but since inter-cabinet series is in play, the operator has the exacting responsibility to ensure that a tube amp output is never unloaded (by forgetting to plug in the other end of the cable to the second cabinet).
About the only way to do this is to hardwire the other end of the second cabinet's cable to its speaker.
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 11, 2009 20:54:11 GMT -5
I had no interest in doing this, but things have wandered somewhat. While I sat back as I watched these proceedings, I saw that I indeed had to sus out the pickup inter-mingling aboot in your 5-way switch (both poles have shorting effects as well as pickup selection effects).
Thanks for doing this test as it exactly proves what is selected and in what structure.
Now, for the bad news.
Based on the last drawing posted in reply #27, the following selections will occur.
DPDT switch poles connected downward on the drawing;
1 N
1&2 N+M
2 M
2&3 B+M+N
3 B
DPDT switch poles connected upward on the drawing;
1 N*M
1&2 N
2 N*M
2&3 N+B
3 M*B
Translating these to the latest measurement list results in response #48;
DPDT switch poles connected one way;
5 N
4 N+M
3 M
2 B+M+N
1 B
DPDT switch poles connected the other way;
5 N*M
4 N
3 N*M
2 N+B
1 M*B
The actual resistance measurements indicate the following (pole numbering and gravity are irrelevant as they are mere symmetry issues);
DPDT switch poles connected one way;
4K33=N
1K45=N+M
2K17=M
0K62=B+M+N
1K09=B
DPDT switch poles connected the other way;
6K50=N*M
4K34=N
6K50=N*M
0K87=N+B
3K26=M*B
The design does exactly what it is supposed to do.
It may not do what one wants it to do, or thought that it would do, but reality always rules (and sometimes bites).
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 10, 2009 15:00:24 GMT -5
Which the 9-pin jack will enable.
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 10, 2009 14:53:44 GMT -5
Yeppers! It's a silly solution.  You can use a dual concentric pot to effect both the volume and tone controls in the same mounting hole. CTS dual concentric 500K potKnobsSimple is (Occam's razor). |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 10, 2009 14:42:58 GMT -5
How does it handle this, through broad output load specifications or an impedance selection switch? What is a "standard speaker cable"? If it involves 1/4" plugs, using one of these magical 9-lug Stereo Jacks, enables one to have what you want. The second (last) cabinet in the chain would have a mono input jack. The first cabinet in the chain requires two jacks. Let me know if 1/4" jacks are used with a "standard speaker cable"? If so, I'll explain the mystical madness of the solution. Why, it's just load impedance. The smaller the impedance, the greater the load presented (there is less to impede current flow). |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 9, 2009 21:35:51 GMT -5
Ok, now pay attention. I would propose that you replace each pickup with a binary multiple fixed resistor. Buy 1% resistors if you can. Buy nothing worse than 5% tolerance resistors. Bridge 1 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in parallel) Solder two 2 K resistors in parallel and connect them where the bridge pickup's two wires went (remove the bridge pickups wires from the switching circuit). Middle 2K Ohms (one 2 K Ohms) Solder one 2 K resistor to where the middle pickup's two wires went (remove the middle pickups wires from the switching circuit). Neck 4 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in series) Solder two 2 K resistors in series and connect them where the neck pickup's two wires went (remove the neck pickups wires from the switching circuit). If you measure 6 K Ohms at the output jack, the middle and neck pickups are in series. If you measure 1K33 Ohms at the output jack, the middle and neck pickups are in parallel. One can easily determine which pickups are selected, and in what structure with this test approach. If you measure the resistance at the output jack with all volume and tone pots at full clockwise rotation and post the readings, we can trivially ascertain which pickups are selected, and in what structure. I do this to initially check out EVERY wiring effort that I do. Simple is. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 9, 2009 21:21:22 GMT -5
Resistance
Resistances in series add.
Rt = R1 + R2 + ... Rn
Resistances in parallel are calculated this way.
Rt = 1/[1/R1 + 1/R2 + ... 1/Rn]
For two resistors;
Rt = [R1 * R2]/[R1 + R2]
Inductance
Inductances in series add.
Lt = L1 + L2 + ... Ln
Inductances in parallel are calculated this way.
Lt = 1/[1/L1 + 1/L2 + ... 1/Ln]
For two inductors;
Lt = [L1 * L2]/[L1 + L2]
Capacitance
Capacitors in parallel add.
Ct = C1 + C2 + ... Cn
Capacitors in series are calculated this way.
Ct = 1/[1/C1 + 1/C2 + ... 1/Cn]
For two capacitors;
Ct = [C1 * C2]/[C1 + C2]
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 9, 2009 20:42:16 GMT -5
While one can tell if a pickup is active by pole tapping, one cannot tell the inter-pickup wiring structure. While I have no patience to sus out the pickup inter-mingling aboot in your 5-way switch (both poles have shorting effects as well as pickup selection effects), I would suggest that this be done. For a short-cut way of "seeing" what is amiss and a'muck, I would propose that you replace each pickup with a binary multiple fixed resistor. Bridge 1 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in parallel) Middle 2K Ohms (one 2 K Ohms) Neck 4 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in series) This can be realized with 5 resistors, coincidently the number in a pack of 5 from Radio Shack. Buy 1% resistors if you can. One can then easily determine the inter-pickup wiring structure from simple resistance measurements at the output jack. Ensure that the volume and tone pots are all at their full clockwise rotation. Two (or more) resistances in series add, two (or more) resistances in parallel are related like this; Series and Parallel Components. I do this to initially check out EVERY wiring effort that I do. Simple is. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 9, 2009 20:24:07 GMT -5
It was intended to bring the logic of a block diagram view to the original concept.
If the blend pots are not (over)used, then a pickup selector switch will have to be included.
Elimination the two blend pots for the intra-pickup blending will go a long way to clearing up the mud.
The inter-pickup blend pot could still be used as the pickup selector with the master volume and tone.
The application of said logic seems to have settled things down a bit.
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 9, 2009 10:31:37 GMT -5
Seems too good to be true, eh? (It usually is.) It IS NOT a Gibson hollowbody. If it was, for $200, a herd of feral cats have p  d in it. Wow, a Gibson copyright infringement copy for $200. The penalty in the U.S. for copyright infringement is $10,000 PER INCIDENT. Go buy a used Ibanez. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 9, 2009 10:09:24 GMT -5
Only to your wallet. For passive guitar controls, a 10 VDC cap would be fine. First, some terminology definition is needed. By "treble cut" (the removal of treble frequencies) do you actually mean a "treble preservation" circuit (also called a treble bleed) whereby the treble is preserved as the volume is turned down? The proper terminology for this would be a treble bypass (it bypasses the increasing high-side resistance of the volume pot as it's turned down). The generally proper value for a treble bypass circuit is a cap around 0.001 uF (1 nF) used in conjunction with a 100K to 200K resistor. Some prefer this in series with the cap and some prefer it in parallel. This is implemented on a volume control, and is independent of a tone control. Now, if you're asking for a 0.022 uF cap in conjunction with a fixed resistor for a two-stage implementation of what the high (treble) cut tone control in a PRS does, this is fairly straightforward. In summary; the volume pot would work just like a volume pot, but the DPDT push pull pot would switch between no high-cut tone control and a 0.022 uF cap in series with a determined fixed resistor for a preset high-cut tone function. Is this correct? Since the SE One has a pickguard mounted volume pot, any DPDT push pull pot should work. You might be able to use a dual concentric pot to effect both the volume and tone controls in the same mounting hole. CTS dual concentric 500K potKnobsI bought some from Warmoth before the embargo. Keep in mind, at aboot $400 AHTSBUTTB (after holding the salesman's breath until they turn blue), the PRS SE does not have "vintage value" and a second hole might be able to be drilled for a *tone pot depending on the cavity dimensions. *Or a switch, or a roller skate key. I've often espoused using the SE series as starting points for custom modifications as they are inexpensive good quality guitars. FOR CONTROL THROUGH BODY SE's I have both the solid body P-90 version (two pickups) and the semi-hollow P-90 version of the PRS SE series. The tops are about 0.200" (5mm) thick. This precludes the use of many pots as their threaded bushings are too short.   Also, both of mine seem to have oversize diameter shaft bushing mounting holes, so the pots wobble about until they are tightened in place. This might indicate that 3/8" bushings could be used. I do have some push pull pots that have a 3/8" diameter 3/4" long threaded bushing that would work with thick top. StewMac sells one that has this bushing. The other units indicate that they have 3/8" long bushings, but with the lock washer there likely isn't enough length to work. StewMac long bushing push pull potYou might be able to use a dual concentric pot to effect both the volume and tone controls in the same mounting hole. I make no representation that the bushing is long enough. CTS dual concentric 500K potKnobsI bought some from Warmoth before the embargo. I checked the tone control mounting hole on the semi-hollow P-90 version of the PRS SE. It's about 8.9 mm in diameter (0.35") and the top is 5.4 mm (0.213) thick. Fitting a pot with a 3/8" long bushing might be difficult. The PRS pots have a bushing length of about 10 mm (0.40"). They use a thin lock washer and a very thin surface washer with a fairly thin nut 1.27 mm (0.50"). The dual concentric pot's 3/8" long bushing is an issue, especially with the 0.062" lock washer and the 0.090" thick nut. If you look at the picture though, there are two folded down anti-rotation tabs on the pot (what the lock washer sort of does). One of these could be folded up at 90 degrees to the mounting surface, a blind hole drilled for it (one that DOES NOT go through the top of the guitar), and just the nut and a thin flat washer used to retain it. Ergo, one could have concentric volume and tone controls. |
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P.A.F.?
Sept 8, 2009 21:04:35 GMT -5
Post by ChrisK on Sept 8, 2009 21:04:35 GMT -5
Maybe you should save it for its vintage value (it always helps to have a good story when you sell a guitar).
Buy the pickup that you like from among the ones that give the EVH tone (I'm old, I don't know anything about this).
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 8, 2009 11:45:47 GMT -5
Ya, this makes it really difficult to tell when the song is Finnish'd (over).
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 6, 2009 12:52:25 GMT -5
Good, you indicated that you wanted a neck + bridge combo. It's good that that will be hum canceling.
Is the middle pickup also of opposite magnetic polarity compared to the neck?
Is the middle pickup two wire or single conductor plus shield?
The information related to the complete bridge pickup is intertwined among the various responses and somewhat inferred.
In summary;
Your drawing selects either the bridge pickup in intra-pickup series, or shorts the south (screw) coil and hence selects the north (slug) coil to be always on.
For this functionality, it is correct as shown.
However, I would not mix terminology, I would call the black wire the bridge "-" (as you do), but also would call the green output wire bridge "+".
I guess if one calls the output "bridge Hot", one might have to call the signal return "bridge Not".
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 5, 2009 23:42:10 GMT -5
tedfixxThis module uses a true Blend pot. From "5" to "0" its a linear high cut tone control. From "5" to "10" it's a linear low cut tone control. 
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 5, 2009 22:50:17 GMT -5
What does this mean?
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 5, 2009 22:35:43 GMT -5
Well, I thought about it a little bit. The Duncan Duckbucker is a two half-coil (and half the strings) in parallel pickup, so the split P-Bass pickup should be fine. Going from series to parallel will reduce the inductance by a factor of four, thereby increasing the pass band resonant frequency by a factor of two (an octave, it's a function of the square root of [the capacitance times the inductance]). High Cut Low Cut Tone ControlAgain, a clever sort might see a way to select the high cut tone function or the low cut tone function on the DPDT push pull tone select pot. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 5, 2009 14:50:42 GMT -5
Fender MIA Strat currently sell for over $1,000. Squier anythings do not. If plywood bodies were nirvana, custom shops would use them exclusively; they do not. No matter what you put in a Squier, it's still a Squier and likely won't sell for even what you paid for it. A VW Beetle with a Rolls Royce hood ornament is still a VW Beetle. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 5, 2009 14:42:05 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure how a P-Bass split pickup in parallel will sound. It should be fine, but usually when two coils are put in series or parallel, both are sensing the same string(s). One could use the tone control to shunt the bass(er) coil with the tone cap. This would tend to reduce its harmonics while bypassing this coil with the treble(r) coil's signal and reducing its fundamentals. Finding an optimum value of cap would be interesting. I can say that having each tone control on my PadoukCaster (MR wiring) directly across the neck and the bridge respectively, with a 0.022 uF cap, gives a noticeable and pleasing shunting effect when the pickups are in series. I'm not sure that this tone control effect is needed as the switch from parallel to series effects an octave downward shift in the output pass band from the pickup. And in parallel, it's just the tone control. I might suggest the use of a true blend pot to effect a high frequency cut from "5" to "0" and a low frequency cut from "5" to "10". I've alluded to this several times with no "nibbles", if there is interest I would post a design. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 5, 2009 14:30:56 GMT -5
As newey sez;
Reverse wound is meaningless until magnetic polarities are determined.
Reversing the winding is usually as trivial as swapping the two coil wires.
First, see if the tops of the pole pieces attract (do not use the pole pieces on the bottom of the pickups); for instance, if the neck and middle pickups magnetically attract, they are reverse polarity and can usually be combined in a hum canceling configuration. If they repel, they cannot without a magnet(s) reversal on ONE of the pickups.
The bar magnets in a P-90 can usually easily be reversed. Check in here before you try this though.
The 6 slug magnets in a typical Fender single coil can only be reversed by remagnetization to the opposite polarity.
For optimum hum reduction in the M+N position, you would want these pickups to have magnetic poles that attract.
The bridge pickup will have a coil of each magnetic polarity.
You're not "tapping" a pickup coil, but "selecting" a pickup's coil.
The coil closest to the bridge is usually the screw coil which has the brightest, thinest sound. The slug coil is usually used for single coil selection due to it sounding closer to (but NEVER the same as) a Strat single coil.
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 5, 2009 14:12:21 GMT -5
That chart is vestigial in nature and came from somewhere some time ago. The link is not functional.
This post is sequential in nature, as folk have added info to the GeDankengang as they choose.
The only Ibanez info that I have (I have little concern about Ibanez guitars) is the information that I posted from greybagz, who (in)conveniently redefined the wires as "+" and "-" rather than start and finish.
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 4, 2009 22:37:21 GMT -5
Do you have technical information on all of these pickups. What are the magnetic polarities and the wiring for each?
So you want B/B+M/M/M+N/N and want the DPDT to select either the full (presumed intra-pickup series) humbucker in the bridge and bridge+middle positions, or want the tapped bridge humbucker south coil to always be on?
Until we know the technical information for all of the pickups (which relates to humbucking inter-pickup combinations), this is irrelevant.
Why do you want the south coil to be selected on the bridge humbucker? Is this the screw or slug coil?
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;D
